Hearing Transcripts

119
1 Q. Then you found that?
2 A. Yes, I did.
3 Q. When did you make those arrangements, was that the
4 Saturday or Sunday?
5 A. I did go back and forth to my parents' home on the
6 Saturday, just looking after the house and the cats and
7 I did actually collect the clothes on that day, I think.
8 I definitely did, yes. The next day I was working away
9 so I would not have been able to do it on the Sunday.
10 MR DINGEMANS: Which brings us to Sunday 13th and now might
11 be a convenient time. I am sorry Rachel we are going to
12 interrupt your evidence.
13 LORD HUTTON: I will sit again at 2 o'clock.
14 (1.10 pm)
15 (The short adjournment)
16 (2.00 pm)
17 PROFESSOR ROGER AVERY (called)
18 Examined by MR DINGEMANS
19 LORD HUTTON: Good afternoon Professor Avery. I am very
20 grateful to you for agreeing to give evidence to this
21 Inquiry. Questions will be put to you now by
22 Mr Dingemans, the Senior Counsel to the Inquiry.
23 A. Thank you, my Lord.
24 MR DINGEMANS: Can you tell his Lordship your full name.
25 A. Roger John Avery.

120
1 Q. And what is your occupation?
2 A. I am an administrator and scientist at Virginia Tech
3 University in the United States.
4 Q. Have you ever studied in England?
5 A. Yes, I have. My formal education was in England.
6 Q. And did you meet Dr Kelly while doing that?
7 A. Yes, I did.
8 Q. Where did you meet him?
9 A. I met him at the University of Warwick when I took my
10 first faculty position as a lecturer. It was either in
11 1971 or 1972.
12 Q. What was his position at the time?
13 A. He was a post doctoral Fellow studying in another
14 laboratory at the same university.
15 Q. Did you see much of Dr Kelly?
16 A. Yes. We did some joint research projects together and
17 through that became close friends.
18 Q. How long did you stay at Warwick University?
19 A. Until 1983.
20 Q. Did Dr Kelly stay there the whole time?
21 A. No, he left the university before I did, as I recall to
22 go to the Institute of Virology in Oxford. I do not
23 recall the exact date that he left.
24 Q. Did you keep in contact while he was at the Institute?
25 A. Yes, we did. We visited back and forward and continued

121
1 our joint research together.
2 Q. And we have heard he moved on to Porton Down. Did you
3 know that?
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. Did you have any contact with him while he was at
6 Porton Down?
7 A. Yes, I did. We maintained contact throughout the last
8 30 years; and we did have some contact while he was at
9 Porton Down.
10 Q. Did you know what work he was doing at Porton Down?
11 A. Only in very general terms. I knew that he was working
12 on defensive approaches, if you will, to biological
13 weapons, but I have no knowledge of the detail.
14 Q. Did you assist him in that work at all?
15 A. "Assist" is probably too strong a word. He did ask me
16 to be an adviser to him, but only asked my advice on one
17 occasion, as I recall, and the matter was a scientific
18 one; I did not understand the relationship of it to his
19 work.
20 Q. In order to help him or advise him in this way did you
21 have to undergo any procedures?
22 A. Yes, I had to be vetted to get some sort of security
23 clearance. This would have been in about 1984.
24 Q. Did you move to the United States?
25 A. Yes.

122
1 Q. When was that?
2 A. Well, I went backwards and forwards several times.
3 I imagine you could say I moved permanently in 1986 when
4 I took a position at Cornell University.
5 Q. You continued your contact with Dr Kelly?
6 A. Yes. David actually had a long-standing collaboration
7 with an institute at Cornell University so he came to
8 see me there maybe two or three times. I do not
9 remember exactly.
10 Q. How did you keep in contact with Dr Kelly?
11 A. It was mostly by telephone calls and by the occasional
12 visit and the very occasional e-mail.
13 Q. At this stage had you talked at all about Dr Kelly's
14 work?
15 A. Sorry, have I talked about his work?
16 Q. Did you talk to Dr Kelly about the work he was doing, at
17 the time you were in the States?
18 A. Never in any detail no.
19 Q. Coming on to this year, did you have any contact with
20 Dr Kelly from about May time onwards?
21 A. Yes, I did. I am sure I spoke to him on the phone on
22 occasions. I did not see him since May. And I know
23 I spoke to him on the phone about a week before he died.
24 Q. When you had spoken to him on the phone, leave aside the
25 last phone call at the moment, if we may, how had he

123
1 seemed to you?
2 A. His usual self.
3 Q. And what had prompted the last phone call?
4 A. The last phone call -- actually there were two of
5 them -- was somewhat unusual in that I, on Thursday --
6 I will just have to check the date to make sure I have
7 the correct date -- Thursday 10th. Thursday 10th July,
8 as I was about to leave my office at about 5.15
9 I received a phone call from the press telling me that
10 Dr Kelly was involved in the current dispute that was
11 going on between the BBC and the British Government over
12 the dossier and could I give them his telephone number.
13 Of course I did not do that.
14 Q. Which press was this, the American press or the English
15 press?
16 A. No, this was the English press -- a reporter for
17 The Times.
18 Q. And you did not hand over his phone number?
19 A. No, I did not, but I did immediately call Dr Kelly on
20 his mobile phone. I vaguely remembered that he told me
21 he was hoping to go back to Iraq. So when he answered
22 I said, "Where are you?" thinking he would say, "In
23 Iraq", and he said, "I am at Weston-Super-Mare". Then
24 I asked what he was doing in Weston-Super-Mare and he
25 told me that he had had a phone call telling him he

124
1 should leave home within a few minutes because the press
2 were about to descend on him; and so he and his wife,
3 Janice, had actually done that.
4 Q. Did he say who had told him that on the telephone?
5 A. Do you know, I have been trying to remember that. I
6 cannot remember whether he told me or whether I learned
7 afterwards that it was the Ministry of Defence.
8 Q. And how did he seem at that time?
9 A. Well, it is very difficult to judge because it was an
10 extremely short phone call, probably only lasted
11 a couple of minutes. That in itself was a little bit
12 unusual in that we usually talked for some time when we
13 made contact. However, he did not seem unduly
14 distressed and did say something like: I will give you
15 the details later.
16 Q. Did you speak to him again?
17 A. Yes. The following morning I received more calls from
18 the press and so called him again and, in fact, gave him
19 a reporter's telephone number at that time and asked
20 him -- obviously said to him, you know: here is the
21 telephone number should you want to call the press. He
22 sort of chuckled and said: no, I do not want to speak to
23 the press.
24 Q. Did he tell you how he felt about his name being in the
25 press?

125
1 A. No. That phone call, as the one on the previous day,
2 was extremely short and we really -- I have more or less
3 covered the complete exchange in what I have said to
4 you. So it did strike me as unusual that he did not
5 want to talk more because, as I say, we usually did.
6 But I did not at that time read any significance into
7 that, other than that it was inconvenient for him to
8 talk.
9 Q. Had you at this time attempted to send him any e-mails
10 or anything?
11 A. Not at that timescale, as I -- during that particular
12 time, as I recall, no.
13 Q. Had you talked with Dr Kelly about his work as
14 a United Nations inspector at all?
15 A. In very general terms. He would talk about personal
16 experiences that he had had in Iraq, how he had enjoyed
17 meeting ordinary Iraqis and talk in very general terms.
18 He never spoke in any detail about his work. He was
19 a man of great integrity and would not have done that,
20 I do not think, even to me.
21 Q. Did you talk to him about retirement, as a friend? You
22 might have spoken about retirement, did you at all?
23 A. Yes, we did. I was somewhat envious in the fact he was
24 expecting to retire in the next year or two and
25 unfortunately I will not be for a few years. We did

126
1 talk about retirement, the sorts of things we might do
2 and the financial implications and that sort of thing.
3 Q. What financial implications did he mention to you about
4 retirement? Was he happy about it?
5 A. I think he was -- he did not describe any details of his
6 financial situation but I think he was concerned that he
7 would be able to make ends meet after retirement.
8 Q. And did you have any further contact with Dr Kelly?
9 A. Sadly, no.
10 Q. Is there anything else that you know of surrounding the
11 circumstances of Dr Kelly's death that you can help his
12 Lordship with?
13 A. I do not believe so because unfortunately I was not in
14 contact with David during that last critical week.
15 LORD HUTTON: Thank you very much indeed, Professor Avery.
16 I am most grateful to you for giving that evidence.
17 Thank you again.
18 A. Thank you, my Lord.
19 LORD HUTTON: Mr Dingemans, I gather we will have to rise
20 for the link to be disconnected.
21 MR DINGEMANS: Yes, we will need to do that.
22 (2.10 pm)
23 (Short Break)
24 (2.12 pm)
25

127
1 MS RACHEL KELLY (continued)
2 Examined by MR DINGEMANS (continued)
3 Q. Rachel, I hope you can see me again.
4 A. Yes, I can.
5 Q. We have got to Sunday, 13th July.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And did your father drive up from Cornwall that day?
8 A. He did, yes. I think he left probably late morning and
9 he planned to get to me for early evening. As I sort of
10 said earlier, I had actually been working that day and
11 I actually left work a little bit early so I could get
12 back in time for when Dad arrived because I wanted to be
13 able to share supper with Dad and David, my partner.
14 Q. What time did you get home?
15 A. I got home about 7 o'clock.
16 Q. Was your father there?
17 A. Yes, he had already arrived. And when I actually first
18 came in, I came into the house and I was in the kitchen
19 and I think Dad had just popped out to get something
20 from his car. He then came back into the house. And
21 when I first looked at him there was a really strong
22 expression on his face that really shocked me and I was
23 actually quite distressed to see the hurt that I could
24 see in his face. It was a particular look. There was
25 a lot of distress and anxiety, perhaps a bit of

128
1 humiliation. He was seeing his daughter for the first
2 time since all this news about his work had broken and
3 I was just very surprised. And he almost -- he did not
4 seem quite like a broken man, that is probably too
5 strong a term, but he was certainly very distressed but
6 putting on quite a brave face. It was really that one
7 look that gave me an insight as to how he was feeling.
8 Q. Can you describe his expression any more?
9 A. It was a very long look. It was quite a loving look, if
10 you like. I loved my father very much and as a daughter
11 I was very concerned to see him showing me this sort
12 of vulnerable side to him; but his eyes seemed quite
13 sort of dilated and quite sort of liquid, quite deep.
14 It was a really strong expression, but then the moment
15 passed, and I was aware that he seemed very gentle, more
16 childlike. I was very conscious that our roles seemed
17 to be reversing, that I needed to look after him and he
18 needed to be looked after. As I said, the moment
19 passed.
20 I showed Dad up to his room. Then we just tried to
21 relax. I took him out to my garden. I have a small
22 garden and Dad always quite liked it. I showed him all
23 my plants. I was just keen to try to look after him and
24 provide some comfort to him. One thing I remember
25 thinking was that I would never compromise his dignity,

129
1 and that is probably what prevented me from seeing that
2 he needed perhaps more help than I alone could give him.
3 By that time I knew, from Mum and from Dad, that he
4 would have to face these two Committees the coming week.
5 And I think both of us accepted he did not have any
6 choice but to go in front of them. And Dad certainly
7 saw it as his duty.
8 I mentioned earlier about his strong sense of duty
9 as a civil servant. He would not have questioned that.
10 He would have done what he had to do in order to fulfil
11 that role for him.
12 Q. Did he talk about the Select Committees?
13 A. He did, yes. He seemed particularly -- he really was
14 quite distressed. He was composed on the outside but
15 underneath I could see he was really very, very deeply
16 traumatised by the fact that the second one would be
17 televised live, and that did seem to be playing on his
18 mind.
19 Q. What did he say about the second one?
20 A. Just he told me in very simple terms it would be
21 televised live. I actually tried not to press him too
22 hard on what was coming up in front of him because
23 I wanted him to relax and I just did not want to cause
24 him any more stress. I was just conscious he seemed to
25 be under a lot of pressure. He was actually quite

130
1 relieved to arrive with us. He had had a long drive and
2 was tired, so it was a chance for him to sit down and
3 relax and talk to us.
4 Q. Did you talk to him about the Ministry of Defence or the
5 circumstances in which his name had come out?
6 A. A little. I think my question was along the lines of:
7 was he getting much support from them? He replied he
8 was getting support from friends and colleagues. He was
9 not really able to articulate any actual support.
10 I just remember feeling there was a lack of moral
11 support for him because he could not tell me about it.
12 He certainly said that people were recognising he had
13 been through the mill. He just seemed very, very tired,
14 very exhausted and under a lot of pressure.
15 Q. Did you discuss anything else, his trip to Baghdad
16 or ...?
17 A. No. I think he knew -- he was hoping to go out to
18 Baghdad shortly and we again spoke of his need to have
19 some holiday. He recognised himself he really needed to
20 have some holiday but that he was planning on going out
21 to Iraq either on the Monday or the Friday of the
22 following week, so that was sort of at the back of his
23 mind. We talked about the coming week, and Dad had
24 originally planned he might stay in hotels in London but
25 he did not really want to do that and be on his own if

131
1 he could avoid it. I just said that he was very welcome
2 to stay with me and I actually gave him a key so that he
3 could just come and go.
4 Q. And you had supper that night all together?
5 A. We did, yes, all together. We had actually a really
6 nice meal. It might sound odd now but we enjoyed each
7 other's company. We had an enjoyable evening. Dad
8 began to relax a bit more. We had a pleasant evening.
9 Q. That was you, David and your father?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What time did he get to bed that night?
12 A. He probably went to bed about 10 o'clock -- just after
13 10, perhaps. David had left us after supper to go for
14 a walk so that we had a chance to talk, but we talked
15 mainly just of his visit to Cornwall, mainly because we
16 had been to the same places -- I had been there the
17 previous year to Heligan. So we just talked about that;
18 and Dad had obviously enjoyed visiting Heligan.
19 LORD HUTTON: Rachel, may I ask you just to speak a little
20 more slowly because the stenographers have to note it
21 down.
22 A. Sorry, of course.
23 LORD HUTTON: I am sorry to interrupt you. Thank you very
24 much.
25 MR DINGEMANS: Rachel, can I turn to Monday 14th July? Were

132
1 you working that day?
2 A. Yes, I was.
3 Q. Where were you going to work?
4 A. I was catching the train to Banbury.
5 Q. Your father, did he go off to London at all?
6 A. Yes he did. He was planning to go off and catch the
7 9.15 train. We both got up quite early, showered and
8 joined each other for breakfast.
9 Q. How did he seem then?
10 A. He again seemed quite quiet, quite nervous, but composed
11 on the outside. I just felt there was a huge amount of
12 tension within him. I remember he was standing in the
13 kitchen whilst I was making coffee and preparing the
14 breakfast. Again, I just tried to be of comfort to him
15 so that he did not worry too much. We actually enjoyed
16 breakfast with each other and were enjoying each other's
17 company. I then had to dash off to go and catch my
18 train.
19 Q. And he obviously caught his train. We have heard about
20 some of what happened to him that day.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you see him later that day?
23 A. Yes, I did. When I got home -- I actually should have
24 been out that evening with work and we actually managed
25 to reschedule that. So I got home and I had sent Dad

133
1 a text message to say that I would be home early after
2 all. When I got home Dad was already there, he was
3 sitting on the sofa and waiting for me. He just seemed
4 very gentle really, very pleased to see me. He was as
5 normal really, quite composed, quite relaxed. He had
6 obviously been home for about an hour.
7 Q. The strain you had seen the night before, was that still
8 there?
9 A. At that point he seemed more relaxed, but I was
10 conscious that I needed to go up to the local
11 supermarket just to get a few things for the next couple
12 of days, including some milk, so I suggested we go for
13 a walk up to the local supermarket.
14 Q. Did he come with you?
15 A. Yes, he did. Yes.
16 Q. How was he on the walk?
17 A. Initially again a little quiet, but talking normally to
18 me. He was asking after my day. Then we walked over
19 a stream that is near my house, and we just stopped and
20 looked and listened to the water. It is actually quite
21 a pleasant spot to watch, and Dad just seemed lost in
22 his thoughts. He just was transfixed by the water.
23 I chatted for a bit then realised he just wanted to be
24 quiet. He just seemed under an overwhelming amount of
25 stress, that is the only way I can describe it, that

134
1 there was something on his mind. I would guess he was
2 contemplating the day ahead of him the next day, but he
3 also seemed to be finding it almost painful to think
4 about it. He was just very withdrawn, and I was just
5 very, very concerned about him.
6 Q. Did you talk about what was going to happen the next
7 day?
8 A. Yes, a little. As I say, we went up to the supermarket.
9 On the way back we talked a little bit more and he told
10 me that he would be facing the Committees alone the next
11 day and he said because it would be too difficult for
12 someone to be with him. I think he tried to find
13 somebody but there was not anyone available who would be
14 able to sit with him.
15 Q. How did he seem about that?
16 A. He seemed disappointed that he would be on his own, but
17 equally he did not complain about it, he just accepted
18 it; but I think he would have preferred very much to
19 have more moral support sitting alongside him.
20 Q. This is on the Monday night when he is still expecting
21 to have both Committees on the Tuesday, is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And was there anything else about his mood that evening
24 that was unusual?
25 A. We then went back home and had tea. Dad did have

135
1 several phone calls from friends, generally he would
2 either take them in the kitchen or perhaps sit in the
3 garden. I remember one comment I overheard was that he
4 was very depressed by the media coverage. He seemed
5 very averse to the media coverage.
6 Q. Did he say anything about being able to get back home at
7 all?
8 A. Yes. He was really unhappy he could not get to his
9 home. He felt he did not want to run the gauntlet of
10 the press. He had not been at home so he was not really
11 quite sure if there was anything to worry about. He had
12 heard from both myself and the pub opposite that there
13 had been a lot of interest. He felt very, very
14 uncomfortable with that, and I think that added extra
15 stress to the situation that he was going through.
16 Q. On 15th July we know he gives evidence to the Foreign
17 Affairs Committee. Were you working that day?
18 A. Yes, I was. I was working as normal.
19 Q. What time did you leave home?
20 A. Again, I left probably about 8 o'clock to go to work --
21 Q. Had you seen your father before that?
22 A. Yes, we again had breakfast together.
23 Q. How did he seem?
24 A. At breakfast, fine. We had coffee and normal breakfast.
25 He was -- I think he was just trying to enjoy his time

136
1 with me possibly rather than think ahead to the day. He
2 had done his thinking perhaps the night before. My
3 partner David came down and we were all quite happy with
4 each other.
5 Q. Do you know what time he set off that morning?
6 A. Yes, he was planning, I think -- every day I think he
7 caught the 9.15 train.
8 Q. You disappear off to work?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. He goes on the 9.15 train. Did you see him that
11 evening?
12 A. Yes, I did. When I got home I phoned him to see where
13 he was, and he was actually just arriving at Oxford
14 station so I went over to meet him.
15 Q. You walked down?
16 A. Yes, I did, yes.
17 Q. How did he seem when he got off the train?
18 A. He was very, very pleased to see me, hugely relieved to
19 be back home and he just seemed utterly exhausted. He
20 was really, really tired. He told me a little of the
21 way the day had gone just whilst we walked back.
22 Q. Why did he say about the day to you?
23 A. He said he had expected two Committees, which I knew,
24 one I think at 12.30 then the televised one at
25 3 o'clock. I know he was glad the televised one was

137
1 going to be second so he would perhaps have had
2 a practice by then. When he arrived he was told -- he
3 arrived in London to find the second one was cancelled,
4 so he went along to the first one. When he got to the
5 first one he found out that actually it was that one
6 that was cancelled, and therefore it was just the
7 televised one.
8 It was an incredibly hot day, I do not know if you
9 remember the day, but when he went to go to the
10 3 o'clock one there was a bomb scare which prevented him
11 getting to this meeting. I know he had to walk down.
12 He said he was late by this time. He was very, very
13 uncomfortable at walking through the press which he had
14 hoped to avoid. That really bothered him. He was very,
15 very hot. He arrived hot and bothered but was unable to
16 arrive any other way. He was a man who very much
17 preferred to arrive so that he could arrive, you know,
18 composed rather than having to run the gauntlet of the
19 press.
20 Q. Did he talk about what had happened at the Committee
21 itself?
22 A. No, I tried not to press him on that. I realised he
23 probably had had a really difficult day. I had not seen
24 the Committee myself and I had not seen any of the
25 coverage. I actually felt, because I knew he did not

138
1 want to be televised, I actually felt a little bit
2 uncomfortable if I had tried to watch it. So
3 I deliberately tried not to watch it, and in any event
4 I was at work, so I could not. Dad said it was very,
5 very hard, those were his words when I just said: how
6 did it go?
7 Q. Did he discuss any of the questioning?
8 A. I got the impression that the questioning had been quite
9 tough. He did make a particular comment about one man,
10 about the strength of his questioning.
11 Q. What was his particular comment?
12 A. I must admit I was surprised he said it. He said it
13 very quietly, with some feeling, and that was that this
14 man was an utter bastard, because of the nature -- not
15 the questions he asked but because of the manner in
16 which he asked them, I think. I hate to say that
17 because I am very conscious that this gentleman has
18 perhaps had some adverse publicity since, and I would
19 hate to inflict any more on him. But Dad did not name
20 the person and by this time we had got home.
21 Q. So you had got home. Was he hot or all right?
22 A. It was an incredibly hot day and Dad -- when I got home
23 I would always offer him a drink anyway, but he was
24 incredibly thirsty so I offered him a drink. He said,
25 yes, he would have water to rehydrate. He was very

139
1 dehydrated. Then he had another very large glass of
2 orange juice, for energy he said. He was just exhausted
3 and was just needing some refreshment.
4 Q. After that, how did he seem?
5 A. He seemed relieved that it was over. I think he was
6 still on some sort of adrenalin high almost. He was --
7 it was -- he was happy to be home and happy to receive
8 phone calls from friends to express how it had gone.
9 Q. Who did he speak to that night?
10 A. That night -- there were a couple of messages on my
11 phone I had not actually picked up for a while. There
12 was one from Sarah.
13 Q. Sarah?
14 A. My Aunt Sarah who spoke earlier.
15 Q. Sarah Pape, we have heard from her.
16 A. Yes. And also one from a work colleague, whose name
17 I forget. But I then needed to go back to my parents'
18 house to look after the cats and the greenhouse. I left
19 Dad in peace for a bit so he could have a chance to
20 relax.
21 Q. And fed the cats?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Was he there when you got back home?
24 A. Yes, he was. I got back home at about 8 o'clock. Dad
25 was in the garden and just coming off the phone from

140
1 Sarah. I had actually phoned Sarah from Westfields,
2 from my parents' home, just to let her know how Dad was,
3 and I know she was keen to talk to Dad so I knew she
4 would be phoning him.
5 Q. How did he seem after the phone call?
6 A. He seemed quite cheerful almost. He was just relieved
7 that the worst one was over. He took a few more phone
8 calls. I prepared tea. Whilst it was cooking he
9 actually came in and was just sitting on the sofa. We
10 did talk a little bit about him being named as a source.
11 I think he was always quite incredulous that they had
12 considered him to be the principal source because
13 although he recognised obviously he had had
14 a conversation with Andrew Gilligan, he seemed to think
15 it was a very minor part and he could only recognise one
16 element of it, which was the reference to 30 per cent
17 about the probability of weapons.
18 Q. So you had a conversation with your father --
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. -- on the Tuesday night --
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. -- about whether or not he thought he was the source for
23 Mr Gilligan's story?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And what was your father saying?

141
1 A. Well, he was really struggling because he was finding it
2 very, very hard to recall conversations he had had about
3 six weeks earlier and he was being very hard on himself
4 because he could not recall them. He also said that
5 because of the last couple of weeks he just felt
6 mentally shattered. I think he was just unable to
7 process his mind as he was usually able to. He was
8 unable to recall, for example, the Gavin Hewitt
9 conversation, that had come up but he was unable to
10 recall that under questioning.
11 Q. Were there any other conversations with journalists that
12 he had been asked about that he mentioned?
13 A. Not one that we talked about on that evening, although
14 with hindsight I have since seen some of the reports in
15 the press and the questioning at the Foreign Affairs
16 Committee Select Committee about Susan Watts struck me,
17 and just to echo really what Sarah said earlier, that
18 the Committee asked him a specific question about
19 Susan Watts and they referred him to a meeting, a face
20 to face meeting he had had. That was in November, which
21 he correctly identified. But they asked him -- they put
22 a quote to him and asked did he recognise those words.
23 He said that on that occasion he could not believe he
24 had said that, and he was right, it was not on that
25 occasion he had had it. Had they asked him about

142
1 a telephone conversation then he might have searched his
2 mind differently and come up with a different answer.
3 Q. And how was he at the end of this conversation? You are
4 cooking supper and he is sitting on the sofa.
5 A. Yes. He referred again to Andrew Gilligan and just --
6 his feeling was that he had accumulated this information
7 over time and he could not understand how Gilligan could
8 make such forceful claims from the conversation that
9 they had had. But it was not a lengthy conversation,
10 I did not want to press him on the matters of the day
11 because I wanted him to be able to relax. He took more
12 phone calls. We did not eat actually until about 9.20
13 because I had got home quite late. He was really,
14 really hungry. We actually had a pleasant meal by that
15 time because we were just relaxing and enjoying each
16 other's company.
17 Q. So he was eating well?
18 A. Yes, very well.
19 Q. Do you know whether he was sleeping well?
20 A. Yes, I actually asked him directly because I was
21 concerned that he might not be, and his reply to me was
22 that he was so exhausted he was sleeping very well
23 indeed.
24 Q. Did you see him the next morning, which would have been
25 the Wednesday morning?

143
1 A. I did, yes. I myself had actually had trouble sleeping
2 and I was up quite early, so we had a little bit more
3 time to talk to each other. Again, with hindsight, we
4 were not watching the news so I did not realise what an
5 ordeal Dad had actually gone through on that Tuesday,
6 just to come back to the Tuesday for a moment. My own
7 expectation of a Select Committee was perhaps something
8 quite gentlemanly and in fact what Dad had gone through
9 was a real ordeal. He was nervous, the heat, the
10 logistics where the meetings had got muddled up, the TV
11 cameras and the intensive questioning made it a real
12 ordeal and I just did not realise that that is what Dad
13 had gone through, so my approach to Dad was really to
14 just try to make him relax in the time that he was with
15 us.
16 Q. And he is on the Wednesday going off to the ISC, which
17 had been postponed from the Tuesday.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you have breakfast with him on the Wednesday?
20 A. We did, yes. We had breakfast together, and we had
21 spoken to Mum the night before and Mum was arranging she
22 would come back on the Wednesday evening, because she
23 had no car down in Cornwall and was keen to come home.
24 Q. How was she going to get home?
25 A. She was going to come back on the train to Oxford to

144
1 meet Dad, and it was convenient to come to my house.
2 Q. That was a conversation on the Tuesday night?
3 A. That was on the Tuesday night. I phoned Mum on the
4 Wednesday morning. Dad and I wanted to check what time
5 she would be arriving. Actually, whilst she was on the
6 phone she mentioned to me that they were talking about
7 Dad on Radio 4, and after the conversation had finished
8 I mentioned to Dad that they were talking about him.
9 And Dad was leaning against the side in the kitchen and
10 he sort of shrank, he cringed, and he really did not
11 want to hear that he was being discussed on the radio.
12 He was really averse to it, and really quite upset. He
13 shook his head and just did not want to hear it. I
14 regretted mentioning it to him because I was conscious
15 it upset him.
16 Q. Was that the only time you discussed the coverage that
17 his exposure was receiving?
18 A. Yes. Again, I had cancelled the paper at Mum and Dad's
19 house so I was not reading it there and I had not had
20 any time at home to read the paper, so I was not keeping
21 up to date with it. I did speak to someone who said
22 that the coverage was generally positive for Dad, so
23 I was not worrying too greatly about it. But Dad did
24 not want to watch the news and he did not want to read
25 the paper. He just read the sports section.

145
1 Q. And how was he feeling about the Select Committee that
2 was going to take place on the 16th July?
3 A. On that day he did seem more relaxed, mainly because it
4 was going to be behind closed doors. I think he thought
5 it would be a lot more along technical lines, so he was
6 more comfortable with what he would have to say to them.
7 Q. You went off to work. What time did you leave for work
8 that day?
9 A. I actually left for work a bit later that day, I was
10 working in a different location and left for work about
11 8.30 and I got back home about 5 o'clock, having called
12 back in at my parents' home first just to make sure
13 everything was okay there.
14 Q. Your father caught the 9.15 train again?
15 A. Yes, he did. Yes. Again, I think he phoned me when he
16 got to Reading on his way home, and then I knew what
17 time he would be arriving at Oxford so I went over to
18 meet him.
19 Q. What time did he arrive at Oxford?
20 A. I think it was about 6 o'clock, I am not sure, perhaps
21 a little bit earlier.
22 Q. Had your mother got home by then?
23 A. No, she was not due home until about 7.15, but she was
24 actually late; she missed her connection at Reading so
25 she was a little bit later.

146
1 Q. How did your father seem on that evening?
2 A. Again, I met him at the train station, he was again just
3 very relieved to get home. He said that the Committee
4 was much more gentlemanly that day. But he also
5 referred to a report he had to do the next day. He did
6 not say what it was but I would guess with hindsight
7 that was the one to tell them about the journalists.
8 Q. The Parliamentary Questions we have seen?
9 A. Yes. Yes.
10 Q. What did he say about the report?
11 A. He did not tell me much about the report but he was very
12 anxious to get home because he needed his computer, and
13 bearing in mind he had been away from home for a whole
14 week by now, he just -- I remember him saying he needed
15 to get home to use his computer. But I insisted they
16 both stay for tea because I was concerned if they went
17 home there might not be any food in the house and
18 I wanted Dad to eat first.
19 Q. You said on the Tuesday night he had seemed utterly
20 exhausted; how did he seem on the Wednesday night?
21 A. Again just exhausted. The pressure seemed to have
22 lifted a little bit when he met me at the station, he
23 seemed more relaxed. We got home and I made tea and he
24 had a few more phone calls and we talked about Mum
25 coming home.

147
1 Q. What time did Mum get home?
2 A. Mum got home about 8.30. She was later than I thought
3 but I went over to meet her as well, just to carry her
4 bag for her.
5 Q. From the station as well?
6 A. From the station yes.
7 Q. How was she?
8 A. She was okay, she was very pleased to be home and she
9 was actually very anxious about Dad, wanting to know
10 that he was all right and how he was. She was quite
11 anxious about the situation that we had been through and
12 she was concerned about me as well, having to look after
13 Dad.
14 Q. Did you all have supper?
15 A. We did. We actually had a nice evening. It was the
16 four of us; it was David, Mum, Dad and myself. And we
17 did relax and enjoy it. Dad was quiet but again joining
18 in, interested and seemed to be more cheerful and
19 obviously looking forward to going home.
20 Q. When your father left was there anything else -- did you
21 make any arrangements for the next day?
22 A. I did actually. As I mentioned, there was a foal that
23 Dad and I used to walk down to see and we wanted very
24 much to go and see it, so I arranged that I would go and
25 meet him the next evening. I did not give a time, I was

148
1 not sure what time I would be home.
2 Q. Because you were going to work on the Thursday?
3 A. Yes, I was going home.
4 Q. When your father left, how did he seem?
5 A. During the evening he had seemed more relaxed, but when
6 he left -- it is hard to describe, I think I recognised
7 that the pressures seemed to be returning to him
8 a little bit. He seemed to be looking ahead to the next
9 day, and I again felt that he was under this enormous
10 stress and tension and I was a little bit concerned
11 about him once again as he left. He did say his stay
12 with me was very much appreciated, and that was the last
13 time I saw my father.
14 Q. On the 17th we have heard about the circumstances in
15 which your mother contacted you.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I think you came and helped look for your father?
18 A. I did, yes. I came over -- Mum told me that Dad had
19 gone for a walk; and we are actually quite a private
20 family and I assumed that after all he had been through
21 he would want to find some solitude, which I quite
22 understood. I thought he had perhaps gone for a walk
23 down to the river. I could quite understand that need
24 in him. So initially I did not worry. But When he
25 then -- I could not reach him on his mobile phone, which

149
1 did make me worry because I could always reach him.
2 I then dashed home and was talking to my sisters.
3 Mum actually was not very well and I was torn between
4 leaving Mum and going to look for Dad. Initially
5 I walked down -- I just assumed he would be coming home
6 by now and I walked down to see if he was coming. Then
7 I went back home and then went out in the car and just
8 searched all the local routes. I went actually down to
9 Harrowdown first, that was my first thought, and looked
10 at the track but I could not see him coming. I promised
11 I would not leave the car and start walking as it was
12 starting to -- it was quite an overcast night.
13 From Harrowdown I searched along from Hinton and
14 then went down to Duxford. At Duxford it was starting
15 to get dark. I did get out of the car there and walk
16 along the lane. Then I came back to the car and it
17 occurred to me for the first time then that Dad might
18 not be coming home and I thought about looking in the
19 barns, but I did not because I was too nervous. I drove
20 back up the hill, by which time I was really quite upset
21 and I remember phoning both my sisters.
22 Q. I think we have heard about the conversations that your
23 sisters and mother had with the police.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Is there anything else relating to the circumstances of

150
1 your father's death that you can assist his Lordship
2 with?
3 A. No, not in terms of evidence, no.
4 Q. Is there anything else you would like to say?
5 A. Yes, there is. My heartfelt wish is that as a result of
6 your Inquiry, my Lord, that people will learn from the
7 circumstances surrounding my father's death and show
8 more compassion and kindness in future to those around
9 them. My sisters and I loved our father very much and
10 we are immensely proud of his achievements. His loss to
11 us is immeasurable and we will always miss him. Thank
12 you.
13 LORD HUTTON: Thank you very much indeed again for your
14 evidence, Rachel. We are all very grateful to you for
15 the very helpful way in which you gave it. Thank you
16 very much indeed.
17 MR DINGEMANS: My Lord, David Wilkins.
18 LORD HUTTON: Yes.
19 MR DAVID WILKINS (called)
20 Examined by MR DINGEMANS
21 Q. Can you tell his Lordship your full name?
22 A. Yes, it is David John Wilkins, my Lord.
23 Q. What is your occupation?
24 A. Company director.
25 Q. We have heard from Rachel; she is your fiancee, is that

151
1 right?
2 A. That is correct, yes.
3 Q. When did you first meet Dr Kelly?
4 A. Well, that would have been some years ago. I would say
5 in the late 1990s. 1996 or 1997, which is when my
6 relationship with Rachel first began.
7 Q. How did you find him to be?
8 A. My impression of him was that he was a quiet man.
9 I knew he was dedicated to his work. He was obviously
10 a family man, the house and the garden, but primarily he
11 was dedicated to his work. I knew he was a man of some
12 importance. I knew he had been decorated by the Queen.
13 He was very, very polite. He was always polite. He was
14 very kind, always civil, very considerate towards me.
15 Q. Did you talk about his work very much with him?
16 A. No, it was something I never raised with him and we only
17 ever spoke about it in very general terms. And it
18 was -- I really never felt it was appropriate for me to
19 ask him questions about it because I knew that he was --
20 that there was a very strong element to what he did that
21 was highly secret and sensitive and it was not
22 appropriate for me to talk about it.
23 Q. We have heard about the family wedding in February of
24 this year. How had Dr Kelly seemed to you
25 from January/February on to July this year?

152
1 A. I would say as he generally had done previously to that,
2 which was to say -- I mean, he was actually quite
3 a quiet man; and in a social setting it would very often
4 be -- it would very often be his wife, Mrs Kelly, who
5 would be very much sort of more to the fore and would
6 sort of take the lead as far as sort of social occasions
7 went. But in general terms I would say he seemed very
8 normal and calm, as he always had done.
9 Q. And did you see him towards the end of June time when we
10 know that he wrote a letter to Dr Wells at all?
11 A. No, that was not a period where we had a great deal of
12 contact other than just on the telephone, when he
13 would -- most of the time -- certainly when he was in
14 England he would phone to speak to Rachel, probably most
15 evenings I would say. My contact with him was really
16 limited to just a bit of chitchat as he telephoned
17 before I just passed the phone over to Rachel for him to
18 talk to her.
19 Q. I think we have just heard from Rachel how Dr Kelly came
20 up to stay with you --
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. -- on the Sunday. Was that the first time you had seen
23 him for a while?
24 A. It was in fact.
25 Q. How did he seem when you saw him on the Sunday?

153
1 A. On the Sunday we -- I met him at probably 6.15 or so in
2 the evening, 6.30 in the evening. That was after
3 a fairly long journey, having driven back from Cornwall.
4 He seemed tired having driven back from Cornwall but
5 very much as somebody would do after a long journey. He
6 did not seem sort of overly agitated or under stress at
7 that particular point. I should say that such was our
8 relationship that he -- I do not think had he felt under
9 stress, I do not think he would have wanted me to know
10 that. I think that was not in the dynamics of our
11 relationship.
12 Q. So you mean he would have put on a braver face for you?
13 A. Yes, I think that is exactly right.
14 Q. By this time his name has obviously come out into the
15 press. Did you discuss that with him at all?
16 A. No.
17 Q. He did not give any indication of wanting to discuss it
18 with you?
19 A. No.
20 Q. I think we have heard a bit about the supper you had
21 that night.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Was there anything else you discussed with him that
24 night?
25 A. Not relating to the -- no, not relating to anything sort

154
1 of pertinent to the Inquiry, I would not say, no.
2 Q. Did you discuss, you know, the coverage at all in terms
3 of on the radio, television or newspapers?
4 A. Not that particular evening, no. The following evening
5 I just happened to mention I had seen some of the Sky
6 coverage, but that was really it.
7 Q. Did you give him any papers to read on the Sunday night?
8 A. On the Sunday evening I said that we had the papers and
9 would he like to read them. He said no, he did not
10 particularly want to. He said it in a rather rueful
11 sort of way. I did not take it that was an admission
12 that he had done something wrong at that point.
13 Q. No, he just did not want to read about his name?
14 A. Exactly, yes.
15 Q. Did you see him for breakfast on the Monday morning?
16 A. Yes, I did. Yes.
17 Q. And how was he at breakfast?
18 A. He seemed okay. I mean, I asked him whether he had
19 slept well and he said he had. We did not actually eat
20 together because I then just went out to work. I think
21 Rachel had been up before me and had had breakfast with
22 him beforehand. But I just sort of came downstairs and
23 said a good morning and then I disappeared off to the
24 office.
25 Q. You did not discuss his forthcoming appearances at the

155
1 Select Committee either on the Sunday night or the
2 Monday morning?
3 A. No. I thought it was a sensitive topic. Clearly it was
4 not appropriate for me to raise it and I would only talk
5 about if he raised it with me, which he did not.
6 Q. I think Rachel said you left them in peace for a bit.
7 A. Yes, I thought that was appropriate, on the Sunday
8 certainly, because they had not seen each other for
9 a few days. I knew that it was a stressful period and
10 I knew there was a lot happening in the background, and
11 I thought it was more appropriate for me to disappear so
12 they could talk frankly. I knew if I was there he might
13 want to have more forthright conversations with Rachel
14 than he would have with me being present.
15 Q. We have heard what happened on the Monday; he goes to
16 a briefing at the Ministry of Defence. Do you see him
17 in the evening?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. And how did he seem then?
20 A. He seemed fairly relaxed, to be honest. I mean, it
21 was -- I knew -- as I say, I knew it was a period where
22 he was under a lot of pressure. I mean, I came in from
23 work and in fact I then went out to a gym and did not
24 get back home until about 8 o'clock, and then we just
25 had supper and then went to bed. I mean, it was a

156
1 fairly sort of normal evening in that respect. I think
2 he had spent some time with Rachel beforehand sort of
3 talking but, as I say, I did not really want to go over
4 any ground they had already covered. So that was really
5 the extent of that evening.
6 Q. Tuesday he is going off to the Foreign Affairs
7 Committee.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you see him at breakfast at all?
10 A. Not at breakfast, but just immediately afterwards where
11 I was just sort of getting ready for work. We just
12 exchanged pleasantries and then went. I do know that
13 that meeting was something that he certainly was not
14 looking forward to because we had spoken about that
15 previously.
16 Q. And did he say why he was not looking forward to it?
17 A. Just because he did not really relish the glare of
18 publicity, as I am sure has been said before. He was
19 a very private person. Again, it was not an
20 admission -- at that point I was not even aware there
21 was any sort of disciplinary aspect, potentially, to
22 what he was going through at that point. But I knew
23 that he was not relishing the prospect of going just
24 because he knew it was going to be televised and it
25 would be beamed live around the world, and consequently

157
1 I think he felt a bit exposed and I do not think
2 naturally he was somebody who would -- he never sort of
3 pushed himself to the fore in that way. I mean, he
4 never -- I knew he was very important in what he did for
5 the Government and the MoD and so on, but he would never
6 come out and say that. He would never sort of push
7 himself forward in a self-important way, it just was not
8 his way.
9 Q. Do you know what he was carrying to and from work? Was
10 he carrying a suitcase?
11 A. He carried a briefcase.
12 Q. He carried a briefcase?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. After he went to the Foreign Affairs Committee, did you
15 see him in the evening?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And how did he seem then?
18 A. Well, the evening I remember as being slightly different
19 in that -- when he arrived back he was very happy to be
20 home; quite obviously he was very happy to be back home.
21 I think he had a change of clothes and then he spent
22 some time talking to Rachel and so on. But what was
23 significant about that evening, it seemed to me, was
24 that after or during the supper that we had, he did seem
25 at that point -- this is probably the only time it

158
1 really happened in a noticeable way, he seemed at that
2 point to be very withdrawn within himself and he was
3 difficult to engage in conversation. He was not very
4 communicative and he just, that evening in particular,
5 he seemed to be -- it was almost as though -- as if it
6 was the case that he was sort of putting on a public
7 front as far as I was concerned, for my benefit, because
8 he did not want me to be in any potentially embarrassing
9 situation in my own home as he was a guest there.
10 I think possibly just that evening I think it became too
11 much for him and that just slipped a bit. It was
12 noticeable he was, at that point, going through some
13 personal trauma.
14 Q. How did he seem, apart from quiet?
15 A. Just very thoughtful, very reflective. He was -- as
16 I say, he was difficult to engage in conversation and he
17 just seemed to be very sort of lost in his own thoughts.
18 Q. You had supper that night?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And was he sleeping well at the time?
21 A. He maintained that he was, yes.
22 Q. And that is the Tuesday night. Did you see him on the
23 Wednesday?
24 A. On the Wednesday, I did, yes.
25 Q. And how did he seem in the morning?

159
1 A. My recollection is that again it was fairly normal.
2 Q. And did he comment about the support or absence of
3 support he was getting?
4 A. Yes, he did. He said that his colleagues -- he said
5 that colleagues had been "tremendously supportive", that
6 is a direct quote. I remember him saying that, that
7 they had been tremendously supportive. I did get the
8 impression that it was not all colleagues. I cannot
9 remember his exact wording, but the implication and the
10 impression I was left with was that it was some but not
11 all.
12 Q. And did he mention anything at all about the Ministry of
13 Defence or how his name had come out, at this stage?
14 A. I have to say he did not, no, not to me.
15 Q. Was anyone going to come up to your house that day as
16 well?
17 A. Mrs Kelly was coming back from Cornwall in the evening
18 that Wednesday.
19 Q. Were you working that day?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So you disappear off to work?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. When you got back home was everyone back home then?
24 A. No, Rachel and Dr Kelly were at home. Mrs Kelly,
25 I think, had missed a connection and therefore her train

160
1 had been delayed or her arrival had been delayed, so she
2 did not arrive back until later, I think possibly
3 8 o'clock or so.
4 Q. And how was Dr Kelly when you saw him?
5 A. Again, I would say he seemed to be quite calm at that
6 point. I think -- as I say, I think in this period of
7 the few days that we are talking about, the very
8 difficult period for him, I think, was the -- if we are
9 talking about one period in isolation, was the Foreign
10 Affairs Committee hearing --
11 Q. Which was the Tuesday?
12 A. -- that he attended on the Tuesday. Other than that, he
13 seemed to me -- he seemed quite calm and he did not seem
14 sort of particularly agitated.
15 Q. Did Dr and Mrs Kelly stay with you that evening?
16 A. They did not, no. They went home. We ate and they went
17 home at about 10 o'clock is my recollection, yes.
18 Q. And did you go outside to see them off?
19 A. Yes, I did, yes. I loaded or helped them load the cases
20 into their car, which had been parked outside our house.
21 Q. And how did Dr Kelly seem as you were loading up the
22 cars?
23 A. Quiet but not -- that was quite sort of in his character
24 anyway. He thanked Rachel and I for what we had done.
25 Rachel had been going backwards and forwards to their

161
1 family home to feed the cats and sort of water the
2 garden and that sort of thing. So he thanked Rachel
3 particularly but both of us for what we had done during
4 that period. Then we stood outside the front door and
5 they turned the car round and we waved them off.
6 Q. How had Mrs Kelly seemed?
7 A. Mrs Kelly seemed relieved to be back in Oxford and about
8 to go home. It had been a long day for her and
9 a difficult period, clearly. She seemed -- she was
10 certainly very pleased to see Rachel and so, no, I would
11 say she seemed to be quite relaxed.
12 Q. Had you ever had any sort of conversations with Dr Kelly
13 about his retirement plans or anything like that?
14 A. No. No, I had not.
15 Q. And when he had left on that Wednesday night he had
16 seemed to you reasonably well?
17 A. Yes, I would say so. Yes.
18 Q. Did you have any other conversation with Dr Kelly on the
19 Thursday at all?
20 A. No, I did not. No.
21 Q. And then I think we have heard of the circumstances in
22 which you came to assist helping to find Dr Kelly.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Is there anything else about the circumstances of
25 Dr Kelly's death that you can assist his Lordship with?

162
1 A. I do not think so. Thank you.
2 LORD HUTTON: Thank you very much indeed, Mr Wilkins.
3 That concludes the evidence for today?
4 MR DINGEMANS: My Lord, yes.
5 LORD HUTTON: Thank you very much. I will rise and sit
6 again at 10.30 tomorrow.
7 (2.55 pm)
8 (Hearing adjourned until 10.30 am the following day)
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

163
1 INDEX
2 PAGE
3 MRS JANICE KELLY (called) ........................ 1
4
5 Examined by MR DINGEMANS ..................... 1
6
7 MRS SARAH AMANDA PAPE (called) ................... 57
8
9 Examined by MR KNOX .......................... 57
10
11 MS RACHEL ANHARAD KELLY (called) ................. 97
12
13 Examined by MR DINGEMANS ..................... 97
14
15 PROFESSOR ROGER AVERY (called) ................... 120
16
17 Examined by MR DINGEMANS ..................... 120
18
19 MS RACHEL KELLY (continued) ...................... 128
20
21 Examined by MR DINGEMANS (continued) ......... 128
22
23 MR DAVID WILKINS (called) ........................ 151
24
25 Examined by MR DINGEMANS ..................... 151

164

<< Back