Hearing Transcripts

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1 LORD HUTTON: When would you like to sit again?
2 MR DINGEMANS: 2 o'clock.
3 LORD HUTTON: Very well. I will rise until 2 o'clock.
4 (12.05 pm)
5 (The short adjournment)
6 (2.00 pm)
7 POLICE CONSTABLE JONATHAN MARTYN SAWYER (recalled)
8 Examined by MR KNOX (continued)
9 LORD HUTTON: Yes Mr Knox.
10 MR KNOX: My Lord, I propose to recall Mr Sawyer to briefly
11 deal with one point.
12 LORD HUTTON: Yes, come back please.
13 MR KNOX: Mr Sawyer, you will recall that this morning you
14 said that amongst Dr Kelly's things that had been found
15 on the search of the premises was a photograph which
16 I think you said might have aroused some interest.
17 I wonder if you could tell us something about the
18 photograph that was found.
19 A. Certainly. It was found in the study of Dr Kelly at
20 11.45 by one of my searchers, PC Slyfield. It was
21 seized because, at the time, it showed Dr Kelly and
22 another person standing outside the Parliament building
23 in Moscow. It was after the coup in Moscow and the
24 Parliament building showed a certain amount of damage.
25 The photograph was in fact dated 11th of the 8th 1993.

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1 PC Slyfield showed it to DC Burton who was the Special
2 Branch officer with him and they both agreed the second
3 person in the photograph bore a very striking
4 resemblance to Andrew Gilligan. The photograph was then
5 seized and produced as an exhibit. That is what I was
6 referring to in my statement.
7 Q. What have subsequent inquiries revealed about that
8 photograph?
9 A. Subsequent inquiries, I have spoken to PC Slyfield on
10 the phone, and I have also spoken to a DS McGuire at the
11 Long Hanborough incident room. PC Slyfield states that,
12 in his opinion, the person has a resemblance to
13 Andrew Gilligan. DS McGuire is of the opposite opinion,
14 that it does not look like Andrew Gilligan; and, as a
15 consequence, the photograph is being brought up tomorrow
16 by ACC Page for the Inquiry to actually look at.
17 Q. Your current understanding of the position is that it is
18 or is not Mr Gilligan?
19 A. On the -- I saw the photograph but very, very briefly.
20 I can form no opinion either way.
21 LORD HUTTON: So it was really seized by the police because
22 it was thought it bore a resemblance to Andrew Gilligan,
23 that is as far as it goes?
24 A. Yes, and the date on the photograph being 1993 which is
25 some 11 years ago when it was.

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1 LORD HUTTON: Yes. Very well. Thank you very much.
2 MR KNOX: Mr Sawyer can I ask you this: as far as you are
3 aware, what is the current view of the police force
4 about this photograph?
5 A. The current view of the police force is it has been
6 retained as an exhibit to be produced before this
7 Inquiry. As to the identity of the second person in the
8 photograph, that is a matter for the Inquiry to make its
9 mind up.
10 I must say that DS McGuire has also said he has been
11 unable to actually speak to Mr Gilligan to verify the
12 veracity of the photograph in question up to this point.
13 LORD HUTTON: Yes. Thank you very much Mr Sawyer.
14 A. Thank you my Lord.
15 MR DINGEMANS: Ms Hunt, please.
16 MS VANESSA ELIZABETH HUNT (called)
17 Examined by MR DINGEMANS
18 Q. Can you tell his Lordship your full name?
19 A. Vanessa Elizabeth Hunt.
20 Q. What is your occupation?
21 A. I am a paramedic.
22 Q. Were you on duty on 18th July?
23 A. Yes I was.
24 Q. What time did you start work?
25 A. 0700 hours.

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1 Q. And where were you based at the time?
2 A. At Abingdon ambulance station.
3 Q. Did you have any calls that morning?
4 A. Yes, we did.
5 Q. Did you have any call relating to Dr Kelly?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What time did you get that call?
8 A. At 0940 hours to the ambulance station.
9 Q. What were you asked to do?
10 A. We were asked to mobilise towards Southmoor for a male
11 patient but we were given no more details at that time.
12 Q. So, did you set off?
13 A. Yes, we did.
14 Q. In an ambulance?
15 A. In an ambulance with my colleague Dave Bartlett.
16 Q. And you drove to Southmoor?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did anyone meet you there?
19 A. On the way we were given some more information on our
20 data screens.
21 Q. What did that say?
22 A. It just said that we were attending the address --
23 Harrowdown Hill in Longworth for a male believed to be
24 a kilo 1 which is actually deceased, and the Thames
25 Valley Police were on the scene.

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1 Q. When you arrived on the scene was anyone there?
2 A. Yes, there were a number of police officers.
3 Q. Do you remember how many?
4 A. Just lots and there was police vehicles there as well.
5 Q. Did you drive off the public road?
6 A. We parked up at the end of the public road, I do not
7 know the name of the road.
8 Q. And you proceeded on foot?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Who had met you?
11 A. There was an officer in regulation clothing who directed
12 us to two or three other officers in combat trousers and
13 black polo shirts and we followed them along the track.
14 Q. You followed them along the track?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And where did that lead to?
17 A. To a wooded area that was on the left of the track.
18 Q. And once you got to the wooded area did you stay on the
19 outside of the wood?
20 A. Initially there were three people on the track, what
21 I now know to be detective constable, one was the search
22 and rescue and there was another gentleman there. The
23 police officers that we had followed stopped and spoke
24 to them and then we followed the two chaps up into the
25 wooded area.

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1 Q. And when you got into the wooded area, what did you see?
2 A. There was a male on his back, feet towards us.
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. And no obvious signs of life.
5 Q. Was there anything marking your route in to the body?
6 A. As we walked into the wooded area the police officers
7 were marking a route off with metal posts. We just
8 walked behind them.
9 Q. And can you describe what was being worn by the man?
10 A. It was -- it looked like a wax type jacket, dark colour.
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. A shirt and I believe jeans, but I cannot be certain of
13 the lower clothing. He also had a pair of boots or
14 trainer cross type footwear on.
15 Q. Could you see anything on the body itself?
16 A. On his left arm, which was outstretched to the left of
17 him, there was some dry blood.
18 Q. Did you go towards the body?
19 A. We stood behind the police officers while they took
20 photographs. Then once they had taken the photographs
21 I went to the right side of the body and my colleague
22 went to the left side.
23 Q. And what was done to check for signs of life?
24 A. My colleague lifted the eyelids to check for pupil
25 reaction, also felt the gentleman's neck for a carotid

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1 pulse and I initially placed the heart monitor paddles
2 on to the chest over the top of his shirt.
3 Q. Did you get any reading at all?
4 A. There was some artefact reading I believed to be from
5 myself as opposed to the body, so we said to the police
6 officers would it be possible to place four sticky
7 electrodes on to the chest, to verify that life was
8 extinct.
9 Q. What did the police say to you?
10 A. Could they just take some more photographs before we
11 undid the shirt, which they then did. My colleague
12 unbuttoned the shirt and I placed the four electrodes on
13 to the chest, two on the upper part of the chest and two
14 underneath the rib cage area.
15 Q. Did you connect those electrodes to anything?
16 A. To the heart monitor.
17 Q. What did that show?
18 A. That showed asystole which is a flat line.
19 Q. What does that mean?
20 A. It means there is no cardiac output and life is extinct.
21 Q. Did you declare life extinct?
22 A. We pronounced we were unable to certify but we said,
23 yes, that, you know ...
24 Q. What did you do with the strips from the machine?
25 A. Took three strips and handed them all to the police

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1 officer.
2 Q. And what did the strips show?
3 A. Just a flat line.
4 Q. And having carried out those activities, what did you do
5 then?
6 A. I said would they like us to leave the electrodes in
7 situ, they requested that we did, remove the leads from
8 the chest and left the shirt unbuttoned.
9 Q. Did you yourself move the body at all?
10 A. The only part of the body we moved was Dr Kelly's right
11 arm, which was over the chest, to facilitate us to place
12 the fourth lead on to the chest. It was just lifted
13 slightly from the body.
14 Q. Right. And do you recall, now, what Dr Kelly was
15 wearing?
16 A. As I say, a dark coloured wax jacket, a shirt and
17 I believe it to be jeans, but I am not certain.
18 Q. Right. And anything on his feet?
19 A. Trainers or cross trainer/boot type footwear.
20 Q. Right. And did you see anything on the ground?
21 A. There was a silver bladed knife, a wristwatch, which was
22 off of the wrist.
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. And, oh, a water bottle, a small water bottle stood up
25 to the left side of Dr Kelly's head.

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1 Q. And did you note whether or not he had a mobile phone?
2 A. There was a mobile phone pouch clipped to his belt on
3 his front but slightly to the right side, but you could
4 not see if there was a phone within the pouch or not.
5 Q. Right. And what were you wearing while you were
6 carrying out this?
7 A. My green squad suit and black boots.
8 Q. And is there anything else that you know of about the
9 circumstances of Dr Kelly's death that you can assist
10 his Lordship with?
11 A. Only that the amount of blood that was around the scene
12 seemed relatively minimal and there was a small patch on
13 his right knee, but no obvious arterial bleeding. There
14 was no spraying of blood or huge blood loss or any
15 obvious loss on the clothing.
16 Q. On the clothing?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. One of the police officers or someone this morning said
19 there appeared to be some blood on the ground. Did you
20 see that?
21 A. I could see some on -- there were some stinging nettles
22 to the left of the body. As to on the ground, I do not
23 remember seeing a sort of huge puddle or anything like
24 that. There was dried blood on the left wrist. His
25 jacket was pulled to sort of mid forearm area and from

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1 that area down towards the hand there was dried blood,
2 but no obvious sign of a wound or anything, it was just
3 dried blood.
4 Q. You did not see the wound?
5 A. I did not see the wound, no.
6 Q. You were not looking at the wound, then?
7 A. The hand -- from what I remember, his arm -- left arm
8 was outstretched to the left of the body.
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. Palm up or slightly on the side (indicates) and, as
11 I say, there was dried blood from the edge of the jacket
12 down towards the hand but no gaping wound or anything
13 obvious that I could see from the position I was in.
14 Q. Were you examining the wrist for --
15 A. No, I was not. No.
16 Q. And were you examining the ground for blood or blood
17 loss?
18 A. No.
19 MR DINGEMANS: Right. Thank you.
20 LORD HUTTON: Thank you very much Ms Hunt. Thank you.
21 MR KNOX: My Lord, the next witness is Mr Bartlett.
22 LORD HUTTON: Yes.
23 MR DAVID IAN BARTLETT (called)
24 Examined by MR KNOX
25 Q. Mr Bartlett, what is your full name?

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1 A. David Ian Bartlett.
2 Q. And what is your occupation?
3 A. Ambulance technician.
4 Q. And who are you employed by?
5 A. Oxford Ambulance.
6 Q. And you are based at?
7 A. Abingdon.
8 Q. Abingdon ambulance station?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Were you on duty on the early morning of 18th July?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And what time did you get in?
13 A. 0700 hours.
14 Q. What is the number of the ambulance you were working in
15 that day; can you remember?
16 A. I cannot remember to be honest without going back to the
17 computer readouts. We use so many different ones.
18 Q. If I say number 934, does that sound right?
19 A. Could be, yes.
20 Q. Do you remember what happened about 20 to 10?
21 A. Yes, we had a call to attend the Longworth area and on
22 the way there -- excuse me, I have a bad cold --
23 LORD HUTTON: Yes, do you have a glass of water there? That
24 might help.
25 A. Yes. We got an update saying it was a male query kilo 1

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1 which as my colleague explained is a person presumed
2 dead.
3 MR KNOX: You say you got an update, was that?
4 A. On the computer readout in the ambulance.
5 Q. That meant what?
6 A. They had come across a body or a body had been reported
7 and had not been certified but presumed dead.
8 Q. Can you remember when you arrived at the place you were
9 going to?
10 A. The time?
11 Q. Yes, the time.
12 A. 9.55.
13 Q. That was at Harrowdown Hill, is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Off Tucks Lane?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What happened when you arrived?
18 A. We parked at the end of the lane where there were some
19 cars already parked, a lot of police officers there. We
20 asked one police officer who directed us to the police
21 that were in the combat uniforms and they asked us to
22 bring some equipment and follow them down into the
23 woods.
24 Q. And you did that?
25 A. Yes. We took a defib monitor with us and our own

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1 personal kit.
2 Q. You walked down into the woods, is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What did you eventually come across?
5 A. We got to the end of the lane, there were some more
6 police officers there. I think it was two or three,
7 I cannot remember, I think it was two, took us up into
8 the woods which was like right angles to the track. As
9 we walked up they were in front of us putting the marker
10 posts in and told us to stay between the two posts.
11 Q. So you stayed between the two posts and carried on
12 presumably?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What did you then come across?
15 A. They led us up to where the body was laid, feet facing
16 us, laid on its back, left arm out to one side
17 (indicates) and the right arm across the chest.
18 Q. What about the hands? Did you notice anything about the
19 position of the hands?
20 A. It was slightly wrist up, more wrist up than down.
21 Q. What about the right arm?
22 A. That was across the chest, palm down.
23 Q. Did you notice any injuries?
24 A. Just some dried blood across the wrist.
25 Q. Which wrist would that be?

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1 A. The left wrist.
2 Q. What about the face? Did you notice anything about the
3 face?
4 A. Yes, going from the corners of the mouth were two
5 stains, one slightly longer than the other.
6 Q. Where did the stains go to from the mouth?
7 A. Towards the bottom of the ears.
8 Q. Did you check for a pulse?
9 A. Yes, checked the carotid pulse, also pupil reaction.
10 Q. The pupils of the eyes that is?
11 A. Yes, and then my colleague placed the two paddles across
12 the chest and in between times the police were taking
13 photographs.
14 Q. Can I just check, did the police take photographs before
15 or after --
16 A. Before. Every time we did something they took another
17 photograph.
18 Q. Your colleague was Ms Hunt who we have just heard?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you feel the skin of the body at all?
21 A. Yes, it was pale and clammy.
22 Q. You mentioned the injury to the wrist. You saw some
23 blood, did you?
24 A. There was dried blood across the top, yes.
25 Q. Was that congealed or not?

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1 A. I did not touch it. It was dried, it started to crack
2 like when it goes dry.
3 Q. Did you see any items next to the body?
4 A. Yes, to the left side above just where the arm was,
5 there was a wristwatch, a silver knife with a curved
6 blade and a bottle of water.
7 Q. And the bottle of water, was that empty or full or --
8 A. I think it was empty.
9 Q. Was it upright or can you remember?
10 A. Yes, it was upright.
11 Q. What type of a knife was it?
12 A. I think it was one of those silver quite flat ones with
13 like a curved blade, more like a pruning knife.
14 Q. What clothes was the man wearing?
15 A. It was a dark coloured jacket, sort of a wax type
16 jacket, striped shirt, blue and white striped shirt, and
17 I think it was jeans.
18 Q. And was the top button done up on the shirt or undone?
19 A. No, I think the top one was undone.
20 Q. Did you notice any other items of clothing nearby?
21 A. There was a cap ...(Pause). Yes, there was a flat cap
22 on the left of the body, near the head end.
23 Q. And were there any stains on the clothes?
24 A. Not that I could see apart from on the deceased's right
25 knee, there was a bloodstain about 25 mm across.

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1 Q. When you say on the right knee, you mean on the
2 trousers?
3 A. Yes, on the right knee of the trousers.
4 Q. Did you yourself do anything to the body?
5 A. I unbuttoned the shirt as my colleague was putting the
6 electrodes on, and moved the right arm up so we could
7 get the electrode down the bottom.
8 Q. And once the electrodes had been put on was any activity
9 noticed?
10 A. No, no. It was just -- no output or anything.
11 Q. And what about -- was there any heart activity or
12 anything like that?
13 A. No, nothing.
14 Q. Did you have the ability to print out the results on the
15 spot?
16 A. Yes, I believe my colleague printed three strips out and
17 gave those to the police.
18 Q. And were any alterations made to the printouts?
19 A. Yes, the time that is printed on the machine because
20 they are the never the right time. We always write the
21 time across the top of them.
22 Q. What was the time that the printout showed before you
23 made the alteration?
24 A. I cannot remember because the colleague made the time.
25 It is usually an hour out.

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1 Q. So you put it back or forward an hour to get the right
2 time?
3 A. Yes, one or the other.
4 Q. You checked that against what? How did you know you
5 were putting the right time on?
6 A. Against our watches.
7 Q. Can you remember at what time death was pronounced?
8 A. (Pause). No, I did not actually make a note of the
9 time. It would have been what was wrote on the strips.
10 Q. It was noted on the strips?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. How long were you at the scene altogether?
13 A. 5 to 10 minutes.
14 Q. Once the printouts had been done, what did you do with
15 them?
16 A. The police officer took some more pictures and then they
17 told us to go back down through the marker posts to the
18 main track.
19 Q. Sorry, through the same track you had come up?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Then you go back there to the ambulance; is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. When you left were the electrodes still on the body or
24 had they been taken off?
25 A. No, we left the electrodes on, just removed the wires.

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1 Q. Was there any reason for that?
2 A. We just -- we always just leave them on.
3 Q. And then what did you do after that? You went to the
4 ambulance, did you?
5 A. We went back up to the ambulance and the police just
6 asked us to check the young lady who had actually found
7 the body but she was fine. They said she was a bit
8 shaken but we had a chat with her and she was fine.
9 Q. Is there anything else you would like to say about the
10 circumstances leading to Dr Kelly's death?
11 A. Just the same as my colleague actually, we was surprised
12 there was not more blood on the body if it was an
13 arterial bleed.
14 MR KNOX: Thank you very much.
15 LORD HUTTON: Thank you very much indeed Mr Bartlett.
16 MR DINGEMANS: Mr Leith, please.
17 MR JOHN BARNABUS LEITH (called)
18 Examined by MR DINGEMANS
19 Q. Can you tell his Lordship your full name?
20 A. I am John Barnabus Leith.
21 Q. What is your occupation?
22 A. I am the Secretary of the National Spiritual Assembly of
23 the Baha'is of the United Kingdom.
24 Q. The Baha'i faith is a religion, is that right?
25 A. That is correct, yes.

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1 Q. When did it start?
2 A. The Baha'i faith started in the middle of the 19th
3 Century in the country now known as Iran and was founded
4 by a figure we consider to be a prophet of God who had
5 the title of Baha'u'llah or Glory of God.
6 Q. What is the Baha'i attitude to other religions?
7 A. The Baha'i faith is that all the great religions come
8 from the same source, namely from God, so we are very
9 happy to work with and welcoming towards people of other
10 faiths.
11 Q. Does that include every other religion, Christian,
12 Jewish, Muslim?
13 A. Yes, all the great religions, Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist. We
14 believe they all come from the same source. We believe
15 there is a historical chain of religions and that
16 Baha'u'llah is the latest of the messengers of God.
17 Q. We have heard that Dr Kelly, after he converted to the
18 Baha'i religion, started reading the Koran. Would that
19 be something consistent with the Baha'i religion?
20 A. It would. I did not know that until I read Mrs Kelly's
21 evidence, but yes, it would be perfectly consistent.
22 I know Baha'is are in fact encouraged to read the Koran.
23 Q. And also other religious books, the Bible, the Koran?
24 A. Yes indeed, I know that Baha'is read the scriptures of
25 all the great religions in addition to our own Baha'i

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1 scriptures.
2 Q. How many Baha'is are there in the world?
3 A. Somewhere between 5 and 6 million. It is difficult to
4 have an exact count because many of the Baha'is of the
5 world live in very poor countries and statistics are not
6 easily kept.
7 Q. Is there a formal structure if you are a Baha'i?
8 A. Yes, we have. The affairs of our faith are governed by
9 elected councils at local level, at national and
10 international level. We have no priests or ministers so
11 we are not, as has been referred to in some of the
12 press, a church. We do not consider ourselves to be
13 a church. We do not have an ecclesiastical structure.
14 Q. How do you get elected as a member of a local body?
15 A. Well, each year on 21st April the Baha'is in each
16 locality elect nine of their members to serve on what is
17 called the local Spiritual Assembly, which is the local
18 governing council for that locality, and their term of
19 office is for one year. Those who serve on these bodies
20 can be re-elected any number of times. But nobody
21 stands for election and there is no canvassing, there is
22 no nomination. It is a secret ballot.
23 Q. So you just vote for someone else who is in the same
24 community as you?
25 A. Yes, each person in the locality has nine votes, and so

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1 they exercise those nine votes; and out of all -- the
2 nine people who receive the most votes out of all the
3 votes cast serve on the local assembly for that year.
4 Q. And why 21st April? Is that a significant day?
5 A. It is a significant day, yes, it marks a particular
6 historic occasion in the history of the Baha'i faith.
7 Q. Which is?
8 A. Which is the Baha'u'llah who had been exiled to Baghdad
9 in 1853 from his native Persia announced his mission in
10 1863, in other words 10 years after he had arrived in
11 Baghdad, he announced his mission to a number of his
12 very close followers and associates on that day in 1863.
13 Q. What mission did he announce?
14 A. That he had come to bring a message from God, that the
15 message that God wished the world to have at this
16 particular time is that all human beings of whatever
17 ethnic group, whatever creed, whatever language,
18 wherever they live in the world are all part of a single
19 human family and that the work of this time is to make
20 that a reality.
21 Q. And if you had been elected on the local level, how
22 would one then progress to a national and international
23 level?
24 A. You use the word "progress", it is not really
25 a progression.

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1 Q. Sorry.
2 A. Because there is no career structure, as it were.
3 Again, the national body is elected by delegates who
4 are, in turn, elected by Baha'is at local level. So it
5 is a two stage election for the national governing
6 council, so that the local Baha'is elect delegates, the
7 delegates go to our national convention and there the
8 delegates, of whom there are 95, each year vote for the
9 national assembly on the same principle as the voting
10 for the local Spiritual Assembly.
11 Q. And what do you know of Dr Kelly's conversion to the
12 Baha'i faith?
13 A. Our records show that he became a Baha'i in
14 September 1999 in the United States. At first we
15 thought that he had become a Baha'i in New York but
16 subsequently it became clear that he actually became
17 a Baha'i in California; and I understand from what
18 I read in The Times that there was a Baha'i in Monterey,
19 California.
20 Q. If you do not know from your own knowledge ...
21 A. I do not know that.
22 Q. He became a Baha'i in the United States?
23 A. He certainly became a Baha'i in the United States, yes.
24 Q. Did he then follow the religion back in Oxfordshire?
25 A. Yes did, yes.

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1 Q. How did he do that?
2 A. He attended meetings organised by the local Spiritual
3 Assembly of the Baha'is of the Vale of White Horse.
4 That local assembly, at that time, covered the whole
5 administrative district of the Vale of White Horse.
6 Q. Is that one of the 95 districts?
7 A. No, this is the local government district of the Vale of
8 White Horse. The local assembly covered that whole area
9 and they organised the usual range of Baha'i meetings
10 including regular prayer meetings and discussion
11 meetings and other such meetings which he attended.
12 Q. And did he have any -- was he elected on to the --
13 A. He was, yes. He was a member of the local Spiritual
14 Assembly of the Vale of White Horse for a time, less
15 than a year I think, I am not sure of the exact time.
16 Q. That is one of the nine?
17 A. He was one of the nine within that locality.
18 Q. Did he have any role in --
19 A. He served for a time as the treasurer of that local
20 Spiritual Assembly.
21 Q. How long did he do that for?
22 A. I could not tell you the exact length of time but I know
23 it was fairly brief.
24 Q. On the Baha'i faith website there is a little heading
25 relating to suicide. Has that always been there or was

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1 that put up, as it were, after Dr Kelly's death?
2 A. May I ask which website?
3 Q. It is the baha'i.org.uk. It says this:
4 "Baha'i leave questions of forgiveness and judgment
5 to God."
6 A. That was put up subsequent to Dr Kelly's death.
7 Q. To explain the thing?
8 A. Correct, yes.
9 Q. If I can just read the extract and ask you to comment on
10 it:
11 "Suicide is always tragic because it cuts life
12 short, but people who suffer hardship and distress
13 deserve compassion."
14 Can you just help his Lordship with the Baha'i
15 attitude to suicide?
16 A. Indeed. The act of suicide is condemned in the Baha'i
17 writings because it is an undue curtailment of the life
18 that should be lived to the full. However, Baha'is and
19 the Baha'i institutions do not and never would take
20 a condemnatory attitude to people who unfortunately
21 commit suicide. Quite the opposite. There would be
22 a great deal of sympathy, as indeed there has been in
23 the case of Dr Kelly, and Baha'is would pray for the
24 progress of the soul of that person as they have for the
25 soul of Dr Kelly.

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1 Q. And do the Baha'is believe in an afterlife?
2 A. Indeed, yes. We see it as a continuation of a single
3 process that begins in this life of coming ever closer
4 to God, through our normal religious practices of prayer
5 and study of the Baha'i scriptures and meditation and
6 reflection, and really attempting to live according to
7 the Baha'i teachings to the best of our ability.
8 Q. I think you wanted to comment on an article in
9 a newspaper which claimed that Dr Kelly had spoken about
10 his work. Did Dr Kelly speak about his work, as far as
11 you knew?
12 A. He did not, or at least he did not ever in my hearing
13 and I understand from the Baha'is in Abingdon that he
14 did not at Baha'i meetings talk about his work. He was
15 extremely discreet. The particular press comment
16 claimed that he had spoken at a Baha'i meeting
17 critically about the September dossier. This was not in
18 fact the case. I was at that meeting. It was not
19 a meeting organised by the Baha'i local assembly, it was
20 privately organised and he was invited to speak to an
21 audience of Baha'is and non-Baha'is about his work as
22 a weapons inspector in Iraq from 1991 until 1998; and he
23 did so with the aid of slides. He did not mention the
24 dossier. Nobody asked him about the dossier.
25 Q. Did you, yourself, know Dr Kelly?

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1 A. I had met him perhaps three maybe four times. I do not
2 claim to have known him well. However, I certainly did
3 know him and he came to -- I have a house in Abingdon
4 and he came to that house and came to Baha'i meetings
5 there, and so to that extent I knew Dr Kelly and engaged
6 in conversation with him on those occasions.
7 Q. And is there anything else surrounding Dr Kelly's death
8 that you can assist his Lordship with?
9 A. I would like to say that the Baha'i community extends
10 the greatest sympathy to Mrs Kelly and to the Kelly
11 family. We do not in any way believe that there is
12 anything in the Baha'i teachings or in the life of the
13 Baha'i community that would have induced Dr Kelly to
14 commit suicide. There were allegations made that the
15 Baha'i faith condones or accepts suicide; this is not
16 the case, as I have explained, and so there is -- the
17 Baha'i community itself and the Baha'i teachings are
18 extremely positive in their ethos, very much to do with
19 the affirmation of life and the development of
20 qualities, and we do not believe that there is anything
21 in the experience that Dr Kelly would have had of the
22 community or his study of the Baha'i teachings that
23 would have led him to suppose that committing suicide
24 was a good act.
25 However, of course, as I said, we do extend the

94
1 greatest sympathy to his family and we are -- you know,
2 we are praying for the progress of his soul.
3 Q. And is there anything else you would like to say?
4 A. No. That is all. Thank you.
5 LORD HUTTON: Thank you very much indeed.
6 A. Thank you, my Lord.
7 MR DINGEMANS: Professor Hawton, please.
8 PROFESSOR KEITH EDWARD HAWTON (sworn)
9 Examined by MR DINGEMANS
10 Q. Can you tell his Lordship your full name?
11 A. Keith Edward Hawton.
12 Q. What is your occupation?
13 A. I am a consultant psychiatrist in Oxfordshire Mental
14 Health Care Trust in Oxford.
15 Q. Do you hold any other posts?
16 A. I have the title of Professor of Psychiatry which is
17 a personal chair from Oxford University.
18 Q. And are you a director of any other post?
19 A. Yes, I am Director of the Centre for Suicide Research in
20 the University Department of Psychiatry in Oxford.
21 Q. And your professional qualifications?
22 A. My professional qualifications are Fellow of the Royal
23 College of Psychiatrists and Diploma of Psychological
24 Medicine. My degrees are Doctor of Science, Doctor of
25 Medicine, MA, Bachelor of Medicine and Bachelor of

95
1 Surgery.
2 Q. How long have you been Director of the Centre for
3 Suicide Research at Oxford University?
4 A. The centre itself has only been in place for about four
5 years but I have been conducting research in this field
6 for far longer.
7 Q. How long have you been conducting research into suicide?
8 A. I first began in 1973.
9 Q. So that is?
10 A. 30 years.
11 Q. 30 years. Have you received any recognition?
12 A. I have had three international awards.
13 Q. What were they?
14 A. One in 1995 which is the research award of the
15 International Association for Suicide Prevention; one in
16 2001 from the American Association of Suicidology, which
17 is an American term, and one in 2002 from the American
18 Foundation for Suicide Prevention, again for research
19 activities.
20 Q. And I think you were appointed by the solicitors to the
21 Hutton Inquiry to assist in relation to this?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you, first of all, give us any general information
24 about the reasons for suicide?
25 A. Well, I think one important thing to bear in mind is the

96
1 fact that suicide does not usually result from just one
2 factor as it is often portrayed. Research into suicide
3 has shown it is often the end point of a series of
4 factors some people refer to as the suicidal process,
5 and these factors may include life stresses and problems
6 obviously, psychiatric disorder, substance misuse, that
7 is misuse of alcohol or drugs, certain personality
8 characteristics, psychological processes that may
9 precede the act, a physical illness can be a factor,
10 exposure to suicidal behaviour in other people can be
11 important, availability of methods for suicide and also,
12 of course, knowledge of these methods can be relevant
13 and also certain family background factors, factors to
14 do with upbringing and so on.
15 Q. Are there any aspects which offer protection against
16 suicide?
17 A. Yes, we know less about these, but there is certainly
18 evidence that having children, particularly young
19 children, can offer relative protection. Strong
20 religious beliefs can be another factor; and having
21 a close confiding relationship, in other words one in
22 which a person can share their problems with other
23 individuals.
24 Q. And in terms of gender differences, are there any gender
25 differences in the number of people who commit suicide?

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1 A. Suicide in this country and most countries in the world
2 is far more common in males than females at roughly the
3 ratio of 3 to 1.
4 Q. Does the risk increase as you get older?
5 A. To a small degree. It used to be that suicide was much
6 more common in older people than younger people but
7 because of changes in suicide rates in both older people
8 which have decreased, and younger people which have
9 increased -- I am referring here to males -- there is
10 little difference these days in risk in different ages.
11 Obviously I am talking in adulthood after puberty.
12 Q. You mentioned a relevant factor may be psychiatric
13 disorders. Can you explain a bit more about that?
14 A. Well, a number of studies have been conducted of
15 suicides in general; and the findings of these are very
16 similar in this respect in that something like 9 out of
17 10 people obviously with retrospective examination
18 appear to have had evidence of psychiatric disorder.
19 Q. And what is the most common psychiatric disorder you
20 might expect to come across?
21 A. That is depression.
22 Q. You have also mentioned personality types. What sort of
23 personality types are likely to be most at risk?
24 A. Well, in younger people it is people who tend to be
25 aggressive and to act impulsively, that is without much

98
1 forethought. In older people we are now getting
2 evidence that individuals who are rather perfectionistic
3 and somewhat rigid may be more at risk.
4 Q. You have mentioned psychological processes. What do you
5 mean by a psychological process? What does that mean?
6 A. Well, it means styles of thinking or thinking
7 processes -- you know people think about things in
8 different ways and it refers to particular styles of
9 thinking in an individual.
10 Q. Right. And what styles of thinking are most associated
11 with suicide?
12 A. Well, the one for which there is most evidence is the
13 tendency to feel hopeless when faced with a difficult
14 circumstance.
15 Q. Are there any other relevant feelings?
16 A. Yes, certainly a sense of feeling trapped, being unable
17 to escape from an unbearable situation. Isolation may
18 be another factor, either actual isolation in the sense
19 of not having people around or relative isolation where
20 a person is unable to communicate with those around them
21 because of their particular personality style.
22 Q. Are there any other additional factors that one might
23 consider here?
24 A. Well, another important factor is where a person has
25 suffered a severe blow to their self esteem, that is

99
1 their sense of self worth. Shame can be another factor.
2 Sometimes people appear to engage in a suicidal act, and
3 I am here including attempting suicide to show other
4 people how bad they are feeling, and occasionally there
5 seems to be a desire for revenge, that revenge is a part
6 of the motivation.
7 Q. You have also mentioned physical illness. How does that
8 affect it?
9 A. Well the association here is particularly with
10 incapacitating disorders, in other words where
11 somebody's freedom of movement and so on is severely
12 limited; where there is life threatening illness or
13 illness which produces chronic pain.
14 Q. And are there any other factors which are relevant at
15 this stage?
16 A. Well, we know that exposure to suicidal behaviour in
17 other people may have an influence. This might be
18 through the family, through other people around the
19 individual or possibly through the media.
20 Q. Does knowing about how you can commit suicide have any
21 effect?
22 A. It seems to be particularly important knowing how to do
23 it, and of course having the availability of methods;
24 and as I mentioned in my report, certain occupational
25 groups that seem to be at higher risks of suicide all

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1 seem to have ready access to methods for suicide and to
2 know about them.
3 Q. What are those groups?
4 A. Those include farmers, doctors, medical doctors that is,
5 dentists, pharmacists and veterinary surgeons.
6 Q. I think you have mentioned some of the protective
7 factors. Is suicide always planned in advance?
8 A. No, it can be impulsive, that is carried out without
9 much thinking beforehand; but this tends to be
10 particularly in younger people.
11 Q. It is more impulsive in younger people?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And for older people, what is the sort of evidence of
14 planning that you can see?
15 A. Well, evidence of planning would be, for example, saving
16 up medication to carry out an act, deliberately going
17 and obtaining a specific method for the act, obviously
18 seeking out a place to carry out the act, where one is
19 least likely to be disturbed, and things such as
20 a person putting their affairs in order, changing their
21 will and so on.
22 Q. And do you always have to communicate your intention to
23 commit suicide? Is there always a note left?
24 A. Not at all, no. In recent studies from the
25 United Kingdom, somewhere between 40 and 50 per cent of

101
1 people who die leave a suicide note or a suicide
2 message, it is not always a note.
3 Q. So the majority do not leave a note?
4 A. That is correct.
5 Q. People who commit suicide, do they always intend to
6 carry out the act?
7 A. No, certainly some deaths by suicide appear to be
8 unintended, that is the person -- as far as one can
9 gather the intention was not to commit suicide. We have
10 evidence of this, for example, from people who die from
11 overdoses where they do not die immediately and one can
12 actually talk to them about their intentions. Certainly
13 in some cases they clearly indicate that was not their
14 intention, to die.
15 Q. What, just a cry for help, or ...?
16 A. Yes, to show desperation, to show other people how bad
17 they were feeling and so on, yes.
18 Q. Is there always a history of previous attempts of self
19 harm or previous attempts at suicide?
20 A. No, this is found in about half of all cases of suicide.
21 Q. I understand that there are a number of different
22 methods of suicide but for fairly obvious reasons you
23 probably do not want to go into those.
24 A. That is correct.
25 Q. Did you form any assessment of whether Dr Kelly's death

102
1 was consistent with suicide?
2 A. I think all the information we have about his death and
3 the circumstances of his death strongly point to his
4 death having been by suicide.
5 Q. And what would you say drives you to that conclusion?
6 A. Well, the first thing is the site in which the death
7 occurred. We have heard that it occurred in an isolated
8 spot on Harrowdown Hill. In fact it was, as I think you
9 have been told, in woodland about 40 or 50 yards off the
10 track taken by ramblers. The site is well protected
11 from the view of other people.
12 Q. Have you been to the site?
13 A. I have visited the site, yes.
14 Q. And what did you notice there then?
15 A. Well, I noticed, first of all -- what struck me was it
16 is a very peaceful spot, a rather beautiful spot and we
17 know that it was a favourite -- it was in the area of
18 a favourite walk of Dr Kelly with his family.
19 Q. What other factors have you considered relevant?
20 A. The nature of his injuries is very consistent with an
21 act of self cutting. The doctor -- I have read
22 Dr Hunt's report, who is the Home Office forensic
23 pathologist. I have also seen the photographs of the
24 injuries to Dr Kelly's body; and the nature of the
25 injuries to his wrist are very consistent with suicide.

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1 Q. Why do you say that? We have heard from some of the
2 ambulance personnel who did not themselves see very much
3 blood. We have heard from others who did see more
4 blood. What is relevant here?
5 A. Well I am referring here particularly to the nature of
6 the cutting which perhaps I would prefer not to describe
7 in detail.
8 Q. Right.
9 A. But it --
10 Q. Perhaps you can just explain why you do not want to
11 describe these matters in detail.
12 A. Well, one of the concerns I have is that there is now
13 good evidence that reporting and portrayal of detailed
14 methods of suicide in the media can actually sometimes
15 facilitate suicide in other people.
16 Q. So it is perfectly obvious there are lots of members of
17 the press here. If you had to say anything to them
18 about the reporting of your evidence today, what would
19 it be?
20 A. I think with regard to the specific method of suicide,
21 I would prefer that that was kept as general as
22 possible.
23 Q. For those reasons?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You have talked about the cutting. What else do you

104
1 consider to have been consistent with suicide?
2 A. Well, the situation or the circumstances in which
3 Dr Kelly's body was found are consistent, in that he had
4 apparently removed -- his glasses were found by his body
5 in a way -- in a manner suggesting that they had been
6 taken off by him, as was his cap; his watch had been
7 taken off, was removed from the body.
8 Q. What does that indicate?
9 A. It suggests that he removed the watch to give him better
10 access to be able to carry out the cutting.
11 Q. And was there anything else that you saw from the
12 pathologist's report that assisted you in your
13 conclusion?
14 A. Well, the instrument that was used, which I have seen
15 a photograph of, and the family, as you know, I think,
16 have been shown a copy of a similar instrument, a large
17 penknife -- I will call it a penknife, but it is
18 a rather primitive style of penknife -- is very similar
19 to one that he had in his drawer in his study, and it
20 was one I think you heard yesterday he had had since his
21 childhood.
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. When considering something like this, one obviously has
24 to think about whether there could have been some other
25 person or persons involved in the act, and the

105
1 circumstances suggest that was not the case.
2 Q. What, whether some third parties were involved in
3 Dr Kelly's death?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And what circumstances do you consider show that there
6 were not?
7 A. Well, there were no signs of violence on his body other
8 than the obvious injury to his wrist that would be in
9 keeping with his having been involved in some sort of
10 struggle or a violent act. There was no sign
11 I understand of trampling down of vegetation and
12 undergrowth in the area around his body. So that makes
13 it highly unlikely that others could have been or were
14 involved.
15 Q. We are going to hear from a toxicologist. Have you had
16 a chance to read that report?
17 A. I have.
18 Q. Does that assist you in your determinations?
19 A. Well, we know that evidence was found in Dr Kelly's body
20 and also on his person of him having consumed some
21 particular medication.
22 Q. Right. And what medication was that?
23 A. That is Coproxamol.
24 Q. And why does that assist in your determination?
25 A. Well, it in itself is quite a dangerous medication taken

106
1 in overdose because it can have particular effects on
2 both breathing and also on the heart rhythm.
3 LORD HUTTON: Just going back to the knife,
4 Professor Hawton, you said it was very similar to one in
5 his drawer. Now, we have been told, for very
6 understandable reasons, that Mrs Kelly was not shown the
7 knife. But when you say "very similar", are you drawing
8 the inference that in fact it was probably a knife that
9 had been in his drawer, is that what why you say "very
10 similar"?
11 A. Yes, I am my Lord.
12 LORD HUTTON: Yes, quite. Thank you very much. Yes.
13 MR DINGEMANS: We were dealing with the toxicologist's
14 report. What do you understand the position to be in
15 relation to that Coproxamol?
16 A. Well, I understand that the evidence found from blood
17 levels and from the contents of Dr Kelly's -- in
18 Dr Kelly's stomach suggests that he had absorbed -- he
19 had taken approximately 30 tablets -- I am sorry, the
20 number of tablets is based on the number that were
21 missing from the sheets he had with him.
22 Q. Right.
23 A. But that he had consumed well in access of a therapeutic
24 dose of Coproxamol and given the blood levels and the
25 relatively small amounts in his stomach, although he had

107
1 vomited, I believe you have heard evidence he has
2 vomited, but this would suggest he had consumed
3 Coproxamol some time before death.
4 Q. Does that assist you in determining whether or not any
5 third party was involved?
6 A. Well, for a third party to have been involved in the
7 taking of the Coproxamol would, I imagine, have involved
8 a struggle. I mean if somebody was forced to take
9 a substantial number of tablets, it is difficult to
10 believe there would not have been signs of a struggle.
11 Q. That is a factor you have borne in mind?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you come, then, to any overall conclusion about
14 whether or not Dr Kelly had committed suicide?
15 A. I think that taking all the evidence together, it is
16 well nigh certain that he committed suicide.
17 Q. Before I turn to Dr Kelly's psychological state, can
18 I just check what information you had available to you
19 in producing this report?
20 A. Yes. I have had a lot of information available. Shall
21 I read --
22 Q. Can I just run through that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. First of all you have spoken to the coroner, is that
25 right?

108
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Who was the coroner?
3 A. Mr Nicholas Gardiner, the Oxfordshire coroner.
4 Q. I think you have seen a number of statements the family
5 made to the police, is that correct?
6 A. That is correct.
7 Q. I think you have also seen various witness statements
8 from Ms Absalom and some of the ambulance personnel?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. The report by the forensic toxicologist, we are going to
11 hear from him tomorrow?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Have you seen any other reports?
14 A. As I said, I have seen the report of the Home Office
15 forensic pathologist.
16 Q. That is Dr Hunt?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And have you seen anything from Dr Kelly's GP?
19 A. Yes, I have read his statement and also seen a copy of
20 his GP records.
21 Q. We have heard about e-mails that have been sent by
22 Dr Kelly. Did you see those?
23 A. E-mails sent -- I saw e-mails sent in some days before
24 his death and I have seen e-mails that were sent by him
25 on the day of his death or presumed day of his death.

109
1 Q. Then I think you have also seen some other police
2 statements from other personnel?
3 A. Yes, I have.
4 Q. Did you see the notes of his interview? We have seen
5 them, on 4th July and 7th July and --
6 A. I have seen those, yes.
7 Q. -- and 14th July?
8 A. That is correct.
9 Q. And we have also heard about him giving evidence before
10 the Foreign Affairs Committee. Have you seen anything
11 relating to that?
12 A. I have viewed the video, the full videotape of that.
13 Q. I understand you have also conducted some family
14 interviews, is that right?
15 A. I have interviewed Mrs Kelly and two of the daughters,
16 Rachel and Ellen, and also his sister or half sister
17 Sarah Pape, yes.
18 Q. Have you spoken to anyone from the Baha'i?
19 A. I spoke to Wendy Moman(?) who I believe is treasurer of
20 the Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the UK.
21 Q. Have you discussed this with the police at all?
22 A. I have had discussions with Thames Valley Police, yes,
23 that is correct.
24 Q. And have you seen any materials that they have shown
25 you?

110
1 A. I have.
2 Q. And I think you have also seen Dr Kelly's personnel
3 record?
4 A. I have.
5 Q. Sorry, going back to Dr Kelly's psychological state.
6 Can you put this in context, as it were, in relation to
7 his work?
8 A. Well, my understanding is that he had become
9 increasingly busy over the two years or so -- this is an
10 approximation -- preceding his death in that work
11 appeared to occupy more and more of his time. When he
12 was not -- when he was working and in the evenings he
13 was frequently telephoned by people from this country
14 and from abroad, presumably discussing his work, seeking
15 information and so on. So I gained the impression that
16 he had become more and more involved in his work and had
17 taken virtually no time off from his working activities.
18 Q. And was anything reported to you to be an effect on
19 Dr Kelly as a result of that?
20 A. Well, I think the first indication that was given to me
21 was by Dr Kelly's wife, who, in the beginning of 2003 --
22 the beginning of this year, began to notice signs of
23 tiredness and strain and she commented that she noticed
24 he had begun to look a little older and to have less
25 time for his outside interests.

111
1 Q. Were there any other factors to set against that?
2 A. Yes, I mean there was a particular factor of his
3 daughter Ellen's wedding, in February, when I understand
4 from all the family members I spoke to that he was in
5 tremendous form and full of good humour and gave an
6 excellent speech and was witty and so on. So he was
7 obviously in reasonable condition then.
8 Q. Coming to the end of May, we have obviously heard from
9 Mrs Kelly yesterday.
10 A. Hmm.
11 Q. What was your understanding of his position?
12 A. Well, that he was showing increasing signs of tiredness.
13 In fact tiredness is a sort of theme running through the
14 account from the family, increasing tiredness. I do not
15 know if Mrs Kelly spoke about this yesterday but she
16 told me she had become concerned about how he was going
17 to cope with his retirement, because work had become
18 such a major focus of his life. He was also frustrated
19 about not getting back to Iraq, because obviously he had
20 spent a tremendous amount of time there. And, you know,
21 he was concerned about the people in Iraq and the
22 suffering they were experiencing.
23 Q. And did you understand the tiredness to improve?
24 A. No, I think it -- I was informed that in fact it got
25 worse and certainly by mid June all of the family were

112
1 aware of this fact.
2 Q. And how does that manifest itself?
3 A. Well, I think it was particularly in his appearance, in
4 that he looked exhausted. On the other hand, he would
5 still drive himself to do things like, when he had the
6 opportunity, I think you heard yesterday, to cut the
7 large lawn at his home, and so on. But I think he got
8 particularly tired after that. However, I was also told
9 he was still able to walk very vigorously on his walks
10 with his daughters.
11 Q. We heard from Rachel yesterday about a conversation she
12 had had with her father about his health.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you consider that significant at all?
15 A. I do consider it significant. Dr Kelly was a person who
16 did not encourage people to -- including his family --
17 probe into how he was feeling and thinking; and I think
18 the fact that his daughter, Rachel, felt the need to say
19 to him that she was concerned about him is evidence that
20 things were not well with him.
21 Q. We have also heard some of Dr Kelly's reaction reported
22 by Mrs Kelly yesterday. Was there anything in that that
23 is relevant?
24 A. This is his reaction to --
25 Q. The fact that his name is coming out.

113
1 A. It seemed to be extremely painful for him. Being a very
2 private person, I think the idea that he would not only
3 be questioned but this would be in public and
4 televised -- this would be on television, was extremely
5 difficult for him.
6 Q. And the circumstances of his appearance itself before
7 the Foreign Affairs Committee, you have seen the video.
8 Is there anything that you can, from an expert
9 perspective, help us with?
10 A. Well, I watched part of it before I got involved at all
11 in the Inquiry; and I remember thinking at the time that
12 I was surprised that -- not about the questions he was
13 asked but about the style of some of the questions, the
14 questioning of someone who was obviously such a senior
15 and important person in his field; and having watched
16 the full video, I would confirm my -- you know, I would
17 agree, if you like, with the impression that I had
18 beforehand.
19 There were clearly times during the interview when
20 he became uncomfortable and almost seemed a little bit
21 confused, I do not mean in a pathological sense, but he
22 seemed quite uncertain.
23 Q. What were the indications that you, from an expert point
24 of view, would look at for that?
25 A. Well, in terms of his -- the way he looked, when he

114
1 looked down and moved in a slightly uncomfortable way
2 and he looked, at times, rather sort of hot and
3 flustered, but there were also, I understand,
4 environmental circumstances which did not help.
5 Q. Yes, we have heard it was a hot day; and we have heard
6 that the fans were turned off.
7 A. Hmm.
8 Q. We have also heard Rachel's description of her father as
9 he returned from that. Was there anything in that
10 description which has assisted you?
11 A. Yes. I think, again, I am relying, obviously, on the
12 information -- the information you heard was very
13 similar to the information I was given. There were no
14 major discrepancies. He seemed to have been very
15 disturbed -- distressed, rather, by that hearing. He
16 gave the impression of having felt belittled by some of
17 the questioning; and I gather he expressed, unusually
18 for him, a certain degree of anger about a particular
19 style of particular questioning that he received.
20 She told me that when he came home to her house in
21 Oxford where he was staying, he, using her words,
22 appeared to be "shocked, broken and humiliated". This
23 was obviously a very, very, very stressful experience
24 for him.
25 Q. We have also heard about his experience in front of the

115
1 ISC on 16th July and Rachel's description of the supper
2 they all had that night after Mrs Kelly had come up from
3 Oxford, going home to his house on the evening of
4 16th July.
5 Is there anything in any of those descriptions that
6 particularly add to the picture you were developing?
7 A. Well, as I understand it, he reported being less
8 disconcerted by the ISC hearing. I think the striking
9 point for me was the moment he left Rachel's house when
10 she talked about a particularly haunted look in his eye,
11 which was somewhat in contrast to how he had been during
12 the meal. So it was the point at which he was leaving
13 her. Also important, I think, is the fact that he
14 arranged to meet her the following evening, the 17th.
15 Q. What significance does that have?
16 A. Well it suggests to me that it was probably unlikely he
17 was thinking of suicide at that point in time.
18 Q. Because?
19 A. I think having become more aware about the nature of the
20 relationship with his daughter, I doubt very much
21 whether he would have arranged to meet her to go for
22 a walk knowing that he was likely not to have been alive
23 when it came to the point.
24 Q. We have heard from Mrs Kelly about what happened on the
25 Thursday morning. Is there anything that you take from

116
1 those descriptions?
2 A. Well, I gained the impression that during that morning
3 there was an escalation in his distress, which became
4 particularly marked, as I understand it, around late
5 morning when he emerged from his study, which apparently
6 was unusual for him. He would usually work through,
7 after a coffee break, to lunch. I think Mrs Kelly
8 described, yesterday, how he went into the sitting room
9 and slumped in a chair. That was a particularly unusual
10 thing for him to do. So one gains the impression of
11 escalating distress during that morning.
12 Q. And you have had a chance to look at his e-mails on that
13 day?
14 A. I have.
15 Q. And you have been given phone records from the police or
16 told of the phone calls that have been traced?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Was there anything, to you, that assists you in
19 determining what escalated the stress?
20 A. Well, I understand that around 11.18 he sent a series of
21 e-mails to friends and colleagues who had sent him
22 messages during the days beforehand. He obviously had
23 not seen these because he had not been at home and he
24 had only gone to his computer that morning. I got the
25 impression he had written a series of e-mails offline

117
1 and then sent them off all at the same time.
2 Q. At 11.18.
3 A. Yes. And these were to colleagues, ex colleagues and
4 professional acquaintances; and the striking thing in
5 those messages is that he talked, briefly -- he
6 mentioned, briefly, the difficulties that he was facing,
7 but he also talked about how he hoped to get back to
8 Iraq and continue his work there. So there was also
9 a sense of optimism at the same time.
10 Q. Can I take you to an illustration of that, at COM/1/10?
11 If you look towards the bottom of the screen you can
12 see:
13 "Dear David,
14 "Sorry about your latest run in with the media.
15 I hope you are not getting too much flack. As we both
16 know only too well dealing with the media is always
17 a balancing act and its always impossible to predict
18 which way it will go. When you get it right everybody
19 is in favour but when you get it wrong you don't see
20 their feet for dust."
21 We can see the response:
22 "Many thanks for your thoughts. It has been
23 difficult. Hopefully it will all blow over by the end
24 of the week and I can travel to Baghdad and get on with
25 the real work."

118
1 Is that the type of e-mail you are referring to?
2 A. Absolutely.
3 Q. What does that illustrate for you?
4 A. Well, it would suggest -- one cannot be definite about
5 this -- that at that stage he still had optimism for the
6 future and that it was probably unlikely that he had
7 ideas or certainly definite ideas of suicide at that
8 point in time. Obviously it is conceivable that he was
9 presenting a different light in those e-mails but
10 I think a logical conclusion would be that he was not
11 thinking of suicide at that time.
12 LORD HUTTON: I think this may be a convenient time to give
13 the stenographers a short break.
14 (3.15 pm)
15 (Short Break)
16 (3.20 pm)
17 MR DINGEMANS: We were looking at the e-mails that Dr Kelly
18 had received that morning. We know he received some
19 Parliamentary Questions following up those that
20 Mr Mackinlay had asked him about in the proceedings. Do
21 you know whether any other Parliamentary Questions were
22 received that morning?
23 A. My understanding is that he received four further
24 Parliamentary Questions.
25 Q. Can I take you to a document COM/1/1? It appears this

119
1 was received at 9.28. It says:
2 "David, more PQs! but plenty of time for reply.
3 I expect that Bryan will deal tomorrow.
4 "James."
5 We know there is a James who shares the office which
6 is James Harrison. This has been taken from his
7 computer.
8 Can I take you to COM/1/2? It appears to be
9 a Parliamentary Question needing to be answered by
10 8th September 2003, which I understand is when
11 Parliament will sit again, and:
12 "To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether
13 his department has complied with Dr David Kelly's terms
14 and conditions of employment in handling the matter of
15 his discussions with Andrew Gilligan."
16 Then there is another one at COM/1/4:
17 "To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, on how
18 many occasions Dr David Kelly spoke to BBC Radio 4
19 defence correspondent Andrew Gilligan; and whether his
20 line managers were aware of this."
21 Again it is from Mr Jenkin.
22 Then COM/1/6:
23 "To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, what (a)
24 Civil Service and (b) MoD rules and regulations may have
25 been infringed by Dr David Kelly in talking to BBC radio

120
1 defence correspondent Andrew Gilligan."
2 Then the fourth one is at COM/1/8:
3 "To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, what
4 disciplinary measures his department will take against
5 Dr David Kelly."
6 Those were questions which have now been extracted
7 from his computer; and Mr Page, the Assistant Chief
8 Constable, will give formal evidence about that
9 tomorrow.
10 LORD HUTTON: From Dr Kelly's computer?
11 MR DINGEMANS: My Lord, yes. They appeared to have been
12 annexed to the e-mail he received at 9.28. We have also
13 heard about the other Parliamentary Questions he was
14 answering, about his lists of contacts with journalists.
15 Do you think any of those might have been relevant?
16 A. Well, I think it is likely that he would have begun to
17 perceive that the problem was escalating, the
18 difficulties for him were escalating and that the
19 prospects for an early resolution of his difficulties
20 were diminishing.
21 Q. We have heard from Mrs Kelly about how he seemed, going
22 to sit down, and then at lunchtime being almost unable
23 to speak. What do you derive from that?
24 A. Well, that he was extremely preoccupied. I think,
25 obviously I am deducing here, but that his inability or

121
1 difficulty with communicating with her was that he was
2 probably focused on the issues in his mind at that time
3 rather than the interaction with his wife.
4 Q. And we have also heard how she was unwell, went up to
5 bed, thought he had left and he had not left at that
6 stage, and then the phone rings again and he had left
7 for his walk at that time.
8 LORD HUTTON: I beg your pardon, can I just ask you
9 Professor Hawton, I mean I think you have referred to
10 this already, but could you just explain perhaps in
11 a little more detail as to whether or not Dr Kelly was
12 a communicative sort of man or whether he seemed to keep
13 things to himself and bottled up his worries?
14 A. I have used the term in my report of an "intensely
15 private man". I think that does describe him. He
16 clearly did not like talking about feelings that he had
17 and difficulties that he was experiencing; and he was
18 a very private man who kept things to himself in that
19 respect.
20 LORD HUTTON: And even to his family of whom he was
21 obviously very fond.
22 A. This was a consistent theme reported by all the family
23 members that I spoke to.
24 LORD HUTTON: Yes.
25 MR DINGEMANS: We have also heard from Ruth Absalom, this

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1 morning, who said that he seemed perfectly normal to her
2 when she met him about a mile away from their house.
3 How is that consistent with the picture that you are
4 portraying?
5 A. Well, I think it is consistent with the notion that he
6 had made a decision before that to end his life or try
7 to end his life and certainly it is not an unusual
8 experience in people who have died by suicide, for
9 people who knew them or came into contact with them
10 shortly beforehand to say that they seemed actually
11 better than they had been shortly before suicide. And
12 I think it is this -- it is having, in a sense, decided
13 on how to deal with the problem that leads to a sort of
14 sense of peace and calm.
15 Q. So when do you believe that Dr Kelly is likely to have
16 formed the intention?
17 A. Well, it is my opinion that it is likely that he formed
18 the opinion either during the morning, probably later in
19 the morning or during the early part of the afternoon,
20 before he went on that walk.
21 Q. We have heard evidence from a Mr Broucher, who relayed
22 a comment about Dr Kelly being found "dead in the woods"
23 and he had at the time thought it a throwaway remark.
24 He had attributed it, if he attributed it at all, to
25 Iraqi agents. Then after hearing of Dr Kelly's suicide

123
1 he thought perhaps it was something else. Can you
2 assist with that at all?
3 A. Well, I gained the impression talking to family members
4 about that particular alleged statement that it was not
5 a typical -- not that he would say that particularly --
6 communicate that, but it was the sort of throwaway
7 comment he might make. I have also gathered that it is
8 quite possible that it was not made at the time that was
9 initially alleged but possibly a year beforehand.
10 Q. We have seen now diaries. Mr Broucher thought it was
11 February 2003. He did say it was a deep memory pocket.
12 We have seen diaries which suggest that he has met
13 Mr Broucher in February 2002 and Mr Broucher has said
14 they only met once. So that may mean it is
15 February 2002. Does that assist?
16 A. I think it is pure coincidence. I do not think it is
17 relevant to understanding Dr Kelly's death.
18 LORD HUTTON: May I just go back a little, Professor?
19 Rachel said that when she saw her father on the Tuesday
20 that she thought he was having a nervous breakdown. Now
21 lay people use the word nervous breakdown of course in
22 a very general sense. But would you like to comment on
23 that observation by Rachel?
24 A. Yes. I asked her to try to, you know, be a bit clearer
25 about that; and I gained the impression that what she

124
1 was referring to was his clear state of anguish that she
2 perceived. I think that was the signs of anguish that
3 she perceived. I think that was the principal reason
4 for that.
5 LORD HUTTON: Yes, I see. Thank you.
6 MR DINGEMANS: Do you consider Dr Kelly had developed any
7 sort of psychiatric disorder before his death?
8 A. I have thought very carefully about this; and my
9 conclusion is that he was not suffering from a severe
10 psychiatric disorder.
11 Q. We have heard of his weight loss; and we have also heard
12 about some of the sparkle going out of his eyes. Are
13 those features relevant?
14 A. Those are certainly relevant; but other features which
15 suggest that he did not have a psychiatric disorder, and
16 I am particularly thinking here of depression, is that
17 his mood was predominantly reported as being quite
18 upbeat in spite of all his difficulties, except at
19 certain times. There was not a sense of a persistent
20 depressive mood. His sleep, as far as we can gather
21 from the family accounts, was not disturbed and his
22 appetite was good.
23 Q. And those are contra-indicators, are they?
24 A. They are.
25 Q. Can we turn to Dr Kelly's personality now? What was

125
1 your view of his personality?
2 A. Well, the first comment is that he was clearly a highly
3 intelligent man, extremely meticulous, a person that
4 dealt in facts rather than speculation, who clearly
5 believed intensely in what he was doing. I think
6 a comment was made by a family member that he really
7 thought he was making a difference and a significant
8 difference in what he was doing.
9 I gained the impression that his identity, his self
10 identity, how he perceived himself was increasingly tied
11 up to his work. Everyone I have spoken to has said that
12 he had a particular sense of loyalty and that trust and
13 loyalty were particularly important to him.
14 He was also a very courteous man and one not to seek
15 the limelight. As I have said earlier, he was intensely
16 private with regard to expressions and feelings and this
17 was conveyed to other people, so that they did not
18 intrude into how he was thinking or feeling. He
19 virtually never seemed to be angry or to express anger.
20 Q. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
21 A. Of course it can be a good thing in certain
22 circumstances; but also if one bottles things up this
23 can also have a very negative effect on a person.
24 Q. We have heard a lot about him dealing in facts. Is that
25 a relevant feature?

126
1 A. I think it is relevant in the sense that some reports
2 that have been made about what might or might not have
3 been said need to be considered against that. I am
4 thinking here particularly to people in the media they
5 have to be considered against that characteristic. He
6 seemed to be an extremely careful sort of person. But
7 I think also it did mean that his reliance on facts
8 meant that feelings tended to be kept very deep inside
9 him.
10 Q. We have heard that he was a weapons inspector, it must
11 have put him in all sorts of difficult situations. Was
12 that similar to the situation that he found himself in
13 towards the end of his life?
14 A. No, I think there was an important difference. One has
15 heard about the situations he faced, for example, in
16 Iraq, while cross-examining people, which sounded to me
17 quite terrifying situations. I gather he could cope
18 with those extremely well. I think the importance about
19 the problems he was facing shortly before his death was
20 that these really challenged his identity of himself,
21 his self esteem, his self worth, his image of himself as
22 a valued and loyal employee and as a significant
23 scientist.
24 Q. And in that respect some of the comments reported of him
25 being middle level, et cetera, how are they likely to

127
1 have affected him?
2 A. Well, I can only really go on particularly his wife's
3 account that these were really very upsetting for him.
4 Q. Was there any other character trait that you considered
5 relevant?
6 A. He appears to have been somewhat of a perfectionist.
7 Q. And what does that actually mean?
8 A. I think he liked things to be just so and wanted to be
9 sure that, you know, things were correct; but it also
10 extended to being a little uncomfortable with change;
11 and I am thinking particularly of change within the
12 household and so on. His wife talked about how, you
13 know, he did not like the house -- she found it quite
14 difficult to arrange for changes in the nature of the
15 household, the layout of the household; that he liked
16 things to remain as they had been.
17 Q. And were there any other traits that you consider
18 relevant?
19 A. Well, he was also -- having said that, you know, he was
20 really -- showed flexibility. He had to cope with
21 changes to his work schedule, often at the last moment,
22 and frustrations with changes in scheduling and so on.
23 So while I said he did not like change in his personal
24 life, in his work life he seemed to be very adaptable
25 and able to cope in that way.

128
1 Other aspects are -- we have talked a lot about his
2 work life. He did have outside interests.
3 Q. What do you understand those to have been?
4 A. He was -- well, obviously his family. He had a very
5 considerable interest in his family. He was devoted to
6 them. But in terms of hobbies and interests, he was
7 keen on sports, particularly rugby and athletics. He
8 was interested in local history, gardening, horticulture
9 events and cribbage, particularly at the local pub,
10 although I think a lot of these interests had diminished
11 in the sense of him actively pursuing them during the
12 last few years because of the demands of work.
13 Q. Is that a good or bad thing?
14 A. Well, I think combined with the fact that he hardly ever
15 took holidays it must have meant that he really did not
16 have much relief from the stresses of his work
17 situation.
18 Q. Can I turn to Dr Kelly's background? What do you
19 understand to have been his relevant background?
20 A. Well, he was brought up in Wales in Pontypridd.
21 I understand that his father went away to war about six
22 months after the marriage to Dr Kelly's mother and that
23 when he returned, and I believe this was a couple of
24 years or so later, the marital relationship did not
25 continue. They did not continue together again after

129
1 that. So that Dr Kelly was brought up in a household
2 with his grandparents and because his mother was working
3 much of the time, the rearing of Dr Kelly fell to -- the
4 responsibility fell to his grandparents, particularly
5 his grandmother.
6 Q. Did you have any view of those relationships?
7 A. Well, I got an impression that he was very close to his
8 grandmother and that he spoke fondly of her. I did not
9 gain -- was unable to form an impression of his
10 relationship with his grandfather.
11 Q. And do you know whether Dr Kelly talked very much about
12 his mother at all?
13 A. I think he spoke about her very little to the family.
14 Q. And did you know anything about her background?
15 A. I did not know much about her -- I knew little at all
16 about her background.
17 Q. And was there anything that you have been sent or been
18 told about the mother that is relevant?
19 A. Well I understand that she died relatively young, that
20 she had had a stroke in her 40s and died a year or two
21 after that, so I think it was at the age of 47, shortly
22 before Dr Kelly's 20th birthday.
23 Q. And did that have any effect on Dr Kelly?
24 A. I think from what I can gather, and of course he did not
25 speak about this too much to people, but one gets the

130
1 impression that it caused him quite a lot of difficulty.
2 He was about to go to university and I think there were
3 comments that he had some difficulties, you know, coping
4 with his academic work in the first year; and
5 I understand -- I cannot say this for sure -- that he
6 had to deal with his mother's estate.
7 Q. Right. What about Dr Kelly's medical history?
8 A. It was unremarkable in the sense that he appeared to be
9 a fit and healthy person. He had had very little
10 contact with his general practitioner and in particular
11 there was no history of psychiatric problems.
12 Q. And we have heard reports that he was becoming tired
13 towards the end of his life; is there anything
14 physically that might help in that respect?
15 A. Yes. The forensic pathologist's report indicates that
16 he had quite marked, for his age, narrowing of the
17 arteries to his heart, suggestive of him developing
18 coronary heart disease, and it is possible that that
19 could have contributed to his tiredness.
20 Q. What might be another contributory factor?
21 A. Clearly the stresses and strains that he was facing.
22 Q. Were there any other potential problem areas?
23 A. He worried a little about money. I think it was
24 a general trait, you know, that he was concerned that,
25 you know, if there are extra expenditures -- I think you

131
1 have been told that he was concerned about his pension,
2 the size of his pension, because he started pension
3 payments somewhat later than usual because of his
4 academic -- his working academia. But there is no
5 indication that he had major financial problems at the
6 time of his death.
7 There are obviously concerns that he would have had
8 about his wife's physical problems which I think you
9 talked about yesterday. Other than that, I do not think
10 there were particular problems or issues.
11 Q. And alcohol consumption; was that a problem in his
12 history?
13 A. Certainly not. He had stopped drinking as I understand
14 it at the time of his conversion to the Baha'i faith.
15 Q. Previous consumption?
16 A. I would describe it from what I have been told as
17 a normal social level of consumption.
18 Q. What factors would protect Dr Kelly against suicide?
19 A. One would obviously be or might have been his family and
20 the importance of his family to him. And another might
21 have been his faith, his conversion to the Baha'i faith.
22 Q. And anything else that would have assisted in protecting
23 him against --
24 A. Well, if he could have shared his problems with other
25 people, I think maybe that could have been a factor that

132
1 might have mitigated a suicide.
2 Q. Have you considered, now, with the benefit of hindsight
3 that we all have, what factors did contribute to
4 Dr Kelly's death?
5 A. I think that as far as one can deduce, the major factor
6 was the severe loss of self esteem, resulting from his
7 feeling that people had lost trust in him and from his
8 dismay at being exposed to the media.
9 Q. And why have you singled that out as a major factor?
10 A. Well, he talked a lot about it; and I think being such
11 a private man, I think this was anathema to him to be
12 exposed, you know, publicly in this way. In a sense,
13 I think he would have seen it as being publicly
14 disgraced.
15 Q. What other factors do you think were relevant?
16 A. Well, I think that carrying on that theme, I think that
17 he must have begun -- he is likely to have begun to
18 think that, first of all, the prospects for continuing
19 in his previous work role were diminishing very markedly
20 and, indeed, my conjecture that he had begun to fear he
21 would lose his job altogether.
22 Q. What effect is that likely to have had on him?
23 A. Well, I think that would have filled him with a profound
24 sense of hopelessness; and that, in a sense, his life's
25 work had been not wasted but that had been totally

133
1 undermined.
2 LORD HUTTON: Could you just elaborate a little on that,
3 Professor, again? As sometimes is the case in this
4 Inquiry, witnesses give answers and further explanation
5 is obvious, but nonetheless I think it is helpful just
6 to have matters fully spelt out. What do you think
7 would have caused Dr Kelly to think that the prospects
8 of continuing in his work were becoming uncertain?
9 A. Well, I think, my Lord, that first of all, there had
10 been the letter from Mr Hatfield which had laid out the
11 difficulties that Dr Kelly, you know, is alleged to have
12 got into.
13 LORD HUTTON: Yes.
14 A. And in that letter there was also talk that should
15 further matters come to light then disciplinary
16 proceedings would need to be instigated.
17 LORD HUTTON: Yes.
18 A. And then of course there were the Parliamentary
19 Questions which we have heard about, which suggested
20 that questions were going to be asked about discipline
21 in Parliament.
22 LORD HUTTON: Yes. Thank you.
23 MR DINGEMANS: Were there any other relevant factors?
24 A. I think the fact that he could not share his problems
25 and feelings with other people, and the fact that he,

134
1 according to the accounts I have been given, actually
2 increasingly withdrew into himself. So in a sense he
3 was getting further and further from being able to share
4 the problems with other people, that is extremely
5 important.
6 Q. Were there any other factors which you considered
7 relevant?
8 A. Those are the main factors that I consider relevant.
9 Q. And is there anything else relating to Dr Kelly's death
10 that is relevant that you want to say to his Lordship?
11 A. No. No, my Lord.
12 LORD HUTTON: Yes.
13 MR DINGEMANS: And is there anything further that you would
14 like to say?
15 A. Yes. I would just like to thank all the people who have
16 helped me do my investigation into this case, this sad
17 case. I would particularly like to thank Dr Kelly's
18 family who have all been willing to speak to me and have
19 spoken to me extremely openly; and I would like to say
20 that I only hope that the healing process following this
21 dreadful event can soon begin for them and that they can
22 be allowed to get on with that.
23 Q. One question, sorry, that I forgot to ask was this: you
24 have had the benefit of judging everything with
25 hindsight. You have had the benefit of exploring

135
1 Dr Kelly's psychology and his make up in a way that
2 no-one could have done at the time.
3 A. Hmm.
4 Q. If I was a lay person before Dr Kelly's death, would
5 I have had any chance of knowing the possible outcomes?
6 A. I think for a lay person then certainly not. I think it
7 would not have been an outcome one would have predicted.
8 LORD HUTTON: Yes. Thank you very much indeed
9 Professor Hawton.
10 Does that bring us to the end of the evidence for
11 today?
12 MR DINGEMANS: Yes, my Lord.
13 LORD HUTTON: Thank you very much. We will sit again at
14 10.30 tomorrow.
15 (3.50 pm)
16 (Hearing adjourned until 10.30 am the following day)
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

136
1 INDEX
2 PAGE
3 MS RUTH ABSALOM (called) ......................... 2
4
5 Examined by MR DINGEMANS ..................... 2
6
7 DR MALCOLM WARNER (called) ....................... 6
8
9 Examined by MR KNOX .......................... 6
10
11 MS LOUISE HOLMES (called) ........................ 8
12
13 Examined by MR KNOX .......................... 8
14
15 MR PAUL CHAPMAN (called) ......................... 19
16
17 Examined by MR DINGEMANS. .................... 19
18
19 POLICE CONSTABLE DEAN ANDREW ..................... 31
20 FRANKLIN (called)
21
22 Examined by MR DINGEMANS ..................... 31
23
24 POLICE CONSTABLE MARTYN SAWYER ................... 45
25 (called)

137
1
2 Examined by MR KNOX .......................... 45
3
4 DETECTIVE SERGEANT GEOFFREY HUGH ................. 59
5 WEBB (called)
6
7 Examined by MR DINGEMANS ..................... 59
8
9 POLICE CONSTABLE JONATHAN MARTYN ................. 70
10 SAWYER (recalled)
11
12 Examined by MR KNOX (continued) .............. 70
13
14 MS VANESSA ELIZABETH HUNT (called) ............... 72
15
16 Examined by MR DINGEMANS ..................... 72
17
18 MR DAVID IAN BARTLETT (called) ................... 79
19
20 Examined by MR KNOX .......................... 79
21
22 MR JOHN BARNABUS LEITH (called) .................. 87
23
24 Examined by MR DINGEMANS ..................... 87
25

138
1 PROFESSOR KEITH EDWARD HAWTON .................... 96
2 (sworn)
3
4 Examined by MR DINGEMANS ..................... 96
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

139

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